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GHcool 
"Forever a curious character."
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 Posted - 10/23/2006 : 01:51:24
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AGAIN! WARNING: DO NOT READ FURTHER IF YOU HAVENT SEEN THE FILM
Has anyone seen The Prestige? I just got back from seeing it. I highly recommend it, but I hated the ending. I could deal with the whole Christian Bale twin plot point, but I couldn't deal with the "real magic" element.
How did everyone else feel? |
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bife 
"Winners never quit ... fwfr ... "
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Posted - 10/23/2006 : 02:49:23
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I thought it was entertaining enough in parts (a 3 out of 5 on my fwfr rating), but I thought it was trying to be too clever and it was too slow to get started.
The twists were well put together, but it doesn't stand up to scrutiny in the way that other plot twists do - Sixth Sense or Bladerunner can still get me thinking about them years after I saw them, but the twins and the cloning don't bear up to any scrutiny.
It may be possible for one twin to fool his husband's wife and kids into believing he is the original, or even for two twins to secretly share a family/life as long as one of them is always out of sight, but it isn't possible for one of them to stick on a wig and fake moustache and consistently pass himself off as just an employee to his wife and kids.
And the real magic/science cloning twist was pretty weak and cheap - although I did like the idea that he was killing himself/his clone every evening to make the trick work and to set up Bale, and that he never knew whether he was killing himself or the clone.
In the end though, regardless of twists or plots, most films stand on the steength of their characters, and although I thought the characters were well protrayed, and Bale, Jackman and Caine were all outstanding, in the end you really didn't give a toss about any of them. |
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GHcool
"Forever a curious character."
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Posted - 10/23/2006 : 04:14:53
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| Yeah, The Sixth Sense was better because for the most part it defined its own rules and stuck by it. Bale's twin made sense in terms of the themes about illusion, but the real magic did not because it was impossible, and thus, not actually an illusion. How did Jackman set up that alter-ego of the lord so quickly? And how did he get the machine to teleport his clone to the balcany of the auditorium? Why did he have to create a new clone for every performance and kill the last one? Couldn't he just make one clone and use him similarly to how Bale used his twin brother, keeping both of them alive? Furthermore, why be an illusionist when you own the rights to this amazing technology that's even more impressive than any magic trick?! |
Edited by - GHcool on 10/23/2006 04:15:38 |
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bife
"Winners never quit ... fwfr ... "
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Posted - 10/23/2006 : 07:00:43
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The Lord wasn't an alter-ego - he actually was Lord Whatever.
Remember early in the film when he explains to his wife that he needs a stagename so that his theatrical antics wont reflect badly on his rich and aristocratic parents?
But as to your other points - yep. |
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GHcool
"Forever a curious character."
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Posted - 10/24/2006 : 06:39:30
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quote:
Originally posted by bife
Remember early in the film when he explains to his wife that he needs a stagename so that his theatrical antics wont reflect badly on his rich and aristocratic parents?
Oh, I didn't remember that.  |
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randall 
"I like to watch."
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Posted - 10/29/2006 : 21:52:07
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I just got back from it. Resisted the urge to click on this topic beforehand -- THANX, cool, for warning me away. This should be a model for others. HUGE SPOILERS AHEAD IN THIS POST!!!!
I liked the movie but was annoyed by its supernatural aspect. That's all I can say: that prevented the "like" from becoming "love." The Bale-character reveal was within the bounds of late-Victorian stage magic [though I can say that during this first screening I noticed early on that we were never getting a good look at his assistant, ever, and that I smelled a rat when Jackman hired a double], but the Jackman-character reveal was nothing more than a science fiction cheat, even to the movie's last shot. I wanted Victorian magic, like the tortured Bale reveal, to be at least possible.
[In the last few months, before knowing that PRESTIGE and THE ILLUSIONIST were about to appear, I've read two wonderful books about Victorian magic by Jim Steinmeyer: HIDING THE ELEPHANT and GLORIOUS DECEPTION, the latter of which is the story of the guy who hides the goldfish bowl on his person, and BTW, he's not really Chinese. If anybody wants to go further into the real-life milieu of THE PRESTIGE, I can't recommend these two books highly enough.]
By the way, identical twins can indeed fool others; I once knew an identical pair who wore their hair alike, etc., and could actually switch dates with their respective girlfriends [though day-in-and-day-out marriage would, admittedly, be far more difficult]. |
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bife
"Winners never quit ... fwfr ... "
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Posted - 10/29/2006 : 23:53:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Randa77
By the way, identical twins can indeed fool others; I once knew an identical pair who wore their hair alike, etc., and could actually switch dates with their respective girlfriends [though day-in-and-day-out marriage would, admittedly, be far more difficult].
Whilst I find it hard, I am prepared to buy into the two twins being able to fool the wife and kids about whichever of them is playing the husband that day.
What I couldn't buy into was that the wife and kids would be fooled by the assistant. As you point out, the director wont even give us a decent shot becasue then we might figure it out, the wife and kids definitely would. I can't put on a wig and moustache and sit in front of my family day in, day out without them realising it's me.
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GHcool
"Forever a curious character."
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Posted - 10/30/2006 : 04:17:12
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quote:
Originally posted by bi7e
quote:
Originally posted by Randa77
By the way, identical twins can indeed fool others; I once knew an identical pair who wore their hair alike, etc., and could actually switch dates with their respective girlfriends [though day-in-and-day-out marriage would, admittedly, be far more difficult].
Whilst I find it hard, I am prepared to buy into the two twins being able to fool the wife and kids about whichever of them is playing the husband that day.
What I couldn't buy into was that the wife and kids would be fooled by the assistant. As you point out, the director wont even give us a decent shot becasue then we might figure it out, the wife and kids definitely would. I can't put on a wig and moustache and sit in front of my family day in, day out without them realising it's me.
I'm not completely sure, but I was under the impression that the wife knew about the twin. Remember when she threatened Christian Bale to tell Scarlett Johanson "what you really are?"
Then again, there was that last scene in which the twin that wasn't hanged told Hugh Jackman that one twin was always in love with the wife and the other twin was always in love with Scarlet Johanson. Thus, neither twin really ever committed adultary.
On the other hand, during the scene in which Bale (one of the twins), the wife, and Johanson were at the same table, Johanson referred to Bale as "Freddy," which seemed to confuse the wife. So its hard to say how much the wife knew about the twins or how much the twins had actually traded lovers. Any thoughts? |
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silly 
"That rabbit's DYNAMITE."
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Posted - 10/30/2006 : 16:21:44
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We saw it the other night (I'd been avoiding this thread, too) and agree with most of y'all:
When I saw the pile of black hats that Ziggy had created (not the opening shot, but 2/3 of the way into the movie) I knew how it would basically end. What's funny is I didn't think of the twin brother, I thought that Bale somehow had a similar machine, but looking back I see that doesn't really fit.
I think one point we were supposed to get was that an obsession has a huge cost. Wolverine was obsessed with getting back at Bale for his wife's accident, and obviously fashioned his life around this. A sign of the obsession was storing 100 clones of himself in a warehouse, each in their own little jar - talk about incriminating evidence!
One question: was Cutter in on the deal? He was there, the whole time, but there were two years that Jackman spent in the Rockies when he (Cutter) could have conspired with Bale. |
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randall
"I like to watch."
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Posted - 10/30/2006 : 19:03:33
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I'm assuming it was the twin who was in love with the [deceased] wife [the one that was with her on the days when she believed he loved her] who volunteered to kill Jackman [or so he thought...this is so convoluted] and hang ["Abracadabra!"], because he had nothing else to live for.
I am anxiously awaiting the DVD because I want to re-watch Bale's performance and see if there are any subtle differences as he plays each twin. Did anybody notice any the first time through?
And I have no friggin idea whose side Michael Caine was on in the end. |
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GHcool
"Forever a curious character."
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Posted - 10/30/2006 : 21:31:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Randa77
I'm assuming it was the twin who was in love with the [deceased] wife [the one that was with her on the days when she believed he loved her] who volunteered to kill Jackman [or so he thought...this is so convoluted] and hang ["Abracadabra!"], because he had nothing else to live for.
I am anxiously awaiting the DVD because I want to re-watch Bale's performance and see if there are any subtle differences as he plays each twin. Did anybody notice any the first time through?
And I have no friggin idea whose side Michael Caine was on in the end.
Michael Caine seemed to have known about the twin because he gave the daughter over to him after her biological father hanged. However, if he did know about the twin and was on the twins' side, why did he testify in court against Christian Bale? |
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randall
"I like to watch."
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Posted - 11/01/2006 : 21:54:16
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quote:
Originally posted by GHcoo7
quote:
Originally posted by Randa77
I'm assuming it was the twin who was in love with the [deceased] wife [the one that was with her on the days when she believed he loved her] who volunteered to kill Jackman [or so he thought...this is so convoluted] and hang ["Abracadabra!"], because he had nothing else to live for.
I am anxiously awaiting the DVD because I want to re-watch Bale's performance and see if there are any subtle differences as he plays each twin. Did anybody notice any the first time through?
And I have no friggin idea whose side Michael Caine was on in the end.
Michael Caine seemed to have known about the twin because he gave the daughter over to him after her biological father hanged. However, if he did know about the twin and was on the twins' side, why did he testify in court against Christian Bale?
Precisely.
Once again, if you enjoyed the mise en scene, buy/check out Jim Steinmeyer's HIDING THE ELEPHANT, within which you will learn, one breakthrough at a time, how the process evolved, step by step, each guy standing on the shoulders of the previous one, to achieve the title illusion, and also you'll meet a fascinating bunch of eccentric Victorian magicians [this is the era in which illusionists were top-billed on the theatrical circuit!]; and his GLORIOUS DECEPTION, which recounts the colorful career of Chun Yung Soo [I lent my copy to a friend, so I'm not sure I have the name right], whose real name was William Robinson, and who lost his life onstage attempting the dangerous Bullet Catch illusion, which is featured in THE PRESTIGE. This is the guy who is shown in the movie making a goldfish bowl appear; the "method" [IOW, how he does it] involves notable physical strength. |
Edited by - randall on 11/01/2006 21:58:52 |
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MM0rkeleb 
"Better than HBO."
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Posted - 11/06/2006 : 19:21:09
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Just saw this yesterday. I saw a lot of it coming (didn't figure out all the details, but I guessed Angier wasn't really dead and Borden did actually have a double). My biggest problem was that the film was too infatuated with its narrative cleverness. It's constructed to maximize the impact of the twists, rather than focusing on the story of two men whose all-consuming obsessions destroy their lives.
For me, the 19th century stage magic film of the year is definitely The Illusionist (featuring the first performance by Giamatti that I really felt was Oscar-worthy). |
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demonic
"Cinemaniac"
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Posted - 11/15/2006 : 04:28:54
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Saw it today - really liked it a lot, but wanted to be blown away because I love the whole idea and setting - the height of Victorian magic is utterly fascinating - but it fell just short. No one has mentioned "Carter Beats the Devil" yet by Glen David Gold - a totally brilliant novel set at the same time and is much cleverer than the plot of "The Prestige" (I've not read Christopher Priest's novel yet so I don't know if it deviates greatly from the plot of the movie), inasmuch as the novel in itself is a wonderful magic trick. Say no more. If you were intrigued and perhaps frustrated by "The Prestige" you really should check it out.
Onto the film. My main disappointment was the introduction of the fantastical and the science fiction elements into the tale with Tesla's cloning machine - that seemed to fly in the face of everything the movie set up about illusion and watching closely. When the answer is real magic there's no reason to watch closely, because there's no trick. Having said that the human sacrifice Angiers had to make on a nightly basis was a fascinating and original concept. How often have you seen a character struggling with the idea of drowning himself and not knowing if the "real" him is in the box or getting the applause. An existential theme in a Hollywood blockbuster! I also really enjoyed the double diary trick -something I didn't see coming either time and made me chuckle.
I worked it out, like Silly, from the point where you saw the mountain of top hats. Fallon had behaved too suspiciously throughout and not been shown properly to be anything other than Bale's double (whether organic as he was, or sci-fi as I first suspected because of the machine). The inclusion of the lookalike actor Root also set that up - seeing a fairly unconvincing make-up job to distract you from the better one.
Have to mention the performances all round - Jackman was nicely tortured, and very funny in his great little cameos as Root, Bale suitably stony. Michael Caine gave one of his best performances in years I think and showed what a subtle and quietly impressive actor he can be when he gets away from doing "Michael Caine". Scarlett J was a let-down as she increasingly is, after this and "Black Dahlia" I'm wondering where it's all gone wrong - she seems to have lost all sense of character and detail. Extra special mention to David Bowie though who was a total knock-out as Tesla! What a surprise! I thought he totally out-acted Jackman in his scenes.
Answering a question:
Cutter was definitely on Borden's side at the very end but not before. I assumed that Borden 1 was executed at the same kind of time as Cutter realised Angiers was still alive having delivered the remaining equipment to his house. He saw Jess at this point and realised how far he was going to punish his old rival. He knew Jess because she was with Fallon at the trial (at the trial he's obviously against Borden; he thinks he killed his friend). At an undefined time later Cutter finds a way to reunite Jess and father (uncle?), presumably following the disappearance (death) of Angiers under the theatre.
A question unresolved in my head:
Is Angiers is pretending to be a Lord and putting on a British accent, or was Angiers always a Lord and was putting on an American accent throughout the film? I was a bit lost at that; it seemed a very elaborate trick to put on an American accent and draw attention to yourself in Victorian London. It seemed to me with his magician's money he could have "become" this aristocrat without much trouble.
Looking forward to "The Illusionist"! Here's hoping they film "Carter" one day. |
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bife
"Winners never quit ... fwfr ... "
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Posted - 11/15/2006 : 10:04:58
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quote:
Originally posted by demonic
A question unresolved in my head:
Is Angiers is pretending to be a Lord and putting on a British accent, or was Angiers always a Lord and was putting on an American accent throughout the film? I was a bit lost at that; it seemed a very elaborate trick to put on an American accent and draw attention to yourself in Victorian London. It seemed to me with his magician's money he could have "become" this aristocrat without much trouble.
Pretty sure he was always a Lord. Early on in the film he discusses his future stage name with his wife. She suggests he use his real name, he says that he can't as he has promised not to embarass his aristocratic parents or to sully their reputation/name through his stage career |
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Demisemicenturian
"Four ever European"
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Posted - 11/16/2006 : 17:53:49
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quote:
Originally posted by bife
And the real magic/science cloning twist was pretty weak and cheap - although I did like the idea that he was killing himself/his clone every evening to make the trick work and to set up Bale, and that he never knew whether he was killing himself or the clone.
I agree, although not to the same degree - I was happy to go along with it at the time. However, the not-knowing-whether-twin-or-self thing didn't quite make sense. There isn't an original and a clone, as Tesla points out with the top hats. One becomes two and one of those dies. It is just that the one alive at the end has experienced all of the splits. But at each stage, the one that dies has experienced all of the splits up to then. (Alternatively, one can view the one that survives as always being the clone, if one of them is, because that is the one that has been created away from where the original stood. However, that does not fit with what Tesla says about the hats.)
What was the one in the glass case at the end? Was that a dead one that hadn't been disposed of, or was it a stupid ooh-there's-something-more moment?
Because of demonic giving it away in the F.Y.C.T.H., I was waiting for the twists and guessed what they were, but not from the beginning of course. I still enjoyed it, though, and gave it 5/5 (like I give most things  ). |
Edited by - Demisemicenturian on 11/16/2006 18:04:41 |
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THE PRESTIGE -- MAJOR SPOILER ALERT
