| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Demisemicenturian |
Posted - 02/13/2007 : 15:43:02
The Good Shepherd
O.K., I thought maybe I'd plump for this film to do B.B.'s challenge. Please post here everything that you know about its plot. I'll aim to see it quite late in its run so that there is time for as many details as possible to be given. |
| 10 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| MisterBadIdea |
Posted - 05/22/2007 : 18:04:03
I think I have an answer. But first I want to say for the record that unraveling this film is not worth your time or energy. When you solve these questions, they will illuminate nothing. This movie will still be awful and meaningless.
That said, I think the surface answer is really the most plausible. Crudup gave Sessions the book because Sessions needed the information within for some reason. By "back there," perhaps he means "back to jail," or if they're sending him to Russia, perhaps they intend to execute him for failing at his job. Do not read too much into this entirely shallow movie. |
| ragingfluff |
Posted - 05/21/2007 : 14:40:12
quote:
Originally posted by ragingfluff
QUESTIONS AT THE END OF THIS POST CONTAIN SPOILERS
I watched the film yesterday on DVD and was very frustrated by what seems like holes in the plot, caused I am assuming by the way in which the film was cut (which caused a lot of confusion) and by the removal of several scenes. By allaccounts there is a planned 4 hour director's cut, which I would be keen to see, as I was drawn into this film and really enjoyed it, except for the parts that confused the hell out of me. I went back and watched the film again (this time with the subtitles for the hard of hearing) and managed to glean a little more out of it. This is a film that I really wanted to like, but I feel that my lack of knowledge of exactly how much the CIA cocked up the Bay of Pigs and my lack of knowledge of the ins and outs of OSS/KGB/CIA/MI5/MI6 in the 1950s hampered my ability to fully appreciate the film. Serious CIA and Cold War junkies will love it, but I found the film sadly flawed. SPOILERS BELOW:
SPOILERS COMING UP:
The great John Sessions is in this as a Russian defector who it turns out is not a Russian defector, but a plant. Billy Crudup plays a character modelled (I assume) on Kim Philby, and he gives Sessions a copy of Ulysses as a present for defecting: it's also a joke because Sessions' charcater establishes his bona fides by giving away knowledge of "Ulysses", the Russian spymaster. But it turns out it wasn't just a harmless gift; It turns out that Crudup is in fact a double agent and the book contains a passport revealing the real identity of Sessions' character as well as photos and schematics of some sort. I have two questions about this:
1. Does Sessions know the passport is in the book? If so, why on earth would he want to keep such incriminating evidence on him? If not, and I think this is the real answer, Crudup was setting him up all along, and presumably Crudup informs Matt Damon's character to search Sessions office. Is this what happened??? Why would the KGB want to expose their own mole??? Help, I was very confused by this... was he a mole, or was he really the real defector and the KGB (through Crudup) had the CIA catch him thinking he was a spy??
2. One of the things which identifies Sessions' defector character is that he is supposed to be able to play the violin. Right after finding the passport, Damon goes to his house and asks him to play the violin (to prove he is who he says he is); then Damon has him arrested. An earlier, deleted scene on the DVD shows Damon giving a violin to Sessions and asking him to play (to prove who he says he is).... as Sessions is being hauled away by the FBI, he pleads that he can't "go back there", or something like that... go back where? Russia? Does that imply, as I asked above, that he really was a defector and he's terrifeid of being deported back to Russia (and I assume the gulag or firing squad)
Seriously, please, can anyone answer this for me??
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| MisterBadIdea |
Posted - 05/17/2007 : 18:35:11
One of the worst wannabe Oscar contenders of last year, by far. I don't know what it means when other people call a movie convoluted and confusing, but when I say it (and I am saying it about The Good Shepherd) I mean that the film is not worth the investment of figuring out what exactly happens. It truly angers me when people call this kind of thing "adult" filmmaking, which some critics tend to do when talking about talky, boring, leaden, super-serious films like this that seem to be saying something important but actually say nothing at all. We could argue about who did what and what certain scenes mean, but really, where would it get us?
Part of the problem is De Niro's no-fun aesthetic, but more important is Damon's awful performance. There's people who could wring some real sadness out of Edward Wilson's inability to have normal human emotions (Heath Ledger, Billy Bob Thornton and Anthony Hopkins have all pulled off such a feat) but Damon is lost, and consequently gives us a character with nothing on the surface and nothing underneath. The plot is structured to indicate that the CIA robs Damon of his soul, but he never seems to have one to begin with. There is no arc.
When that agent near the end said that thing about how they don't call it "the CIA" for the same reason that they don't say "the God," I was insulted. There was nothing to indicate at all that the agents had that much faith in the institution. |
| ragingfluff |
Posted - 05/17/2007 : 18:11:42
QUESTIONS AT THE END OF THIS POST CONTAIN SPOILERS
I watched the film yesterday on DVD and was very frustrated by what seems like holes in the plot, caused I am assuming by the way in which the film was cut (which caused a lot of confusion) and by the removal of several scenes. By allaccounts there is a planned 4 hour director's cut, which I would be keen to see, as I was drawn into this film and really enjoyed it, except for the parts that confused the hell out of me. I went back and watched the film again (this time with the subtitles for the hard of hearing) and managed to glean a little more out of it. This is a film that I really wanted to like, but I feel that my lack of knowledge of exactly how much the CIA cocked up the Bay of Pigs and my lack of knowledge of the ins and outs of OSS/KGB/CIA/MI5/MI6 in the 1950s hampered my ability to fully appreciate the film. Serious CIA and Cold War junkies will love it, but I found the film sadly flawed. SPOILERS BELOW:
SPOILERS COMING UP:
The great John Sessions is in this as a Russian defector who it turns out is not a Russian defector, but a plant. Billy Crudup plays a character modelled (I assume) on Kim Philby, and he gives Sessions a copy of Ulysses as a present for defecting: it's also a joke because Sessions' charcater establishes his bona fides by giving away knowledge of "Ulysses", the Russian spymaster. But it turns out it wasn't just a harmless gift; It turns out that Crudup is in fact a double agent and the book contains a passport revealing the real identity of Sessions' character as well as photos and schematics of some sort. I have two questions about this:
1. Does Sessions know the passport is in the book? If so, why on earth would he want to keep such incriminating evidence on him? If not, and I think this is the real answer, Crudup was setting him up all along, and presumably Crudup informs Matt Damon's character to search Sessions office. Is this what happened??? Why would the KGB want to expose their own mole??? Help, I was very confused by this... was he a mole, or was he really the real defector and the KGB (through Crudup) had the CIA catch him thinking he was a spy??
2. One of the things which identifies Sessions' defector character is that he is supposed to be able to play the violin. Right after finding the passport, Damon goes to his house and asks him to play the violin (to prove he is who he says he is); then Damon has him arrested. An earlier, deleted scene on the DVD shows Damon giving a violin to Sessions and asking him to play (to prove who he says he is).... as Sessions is being hauled away by the FBI, he pleads that he can't "go back there", or something like that... go back where? Russia? Does that imply, as I asked above, that he really was a defector and he's terrifeid of being deported back to Russia (and I assume the gulag or firing squad)
Don't even get me started on the African fiancee thing.. I still don't know who had her killed
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| Demisemicenturian |
Posted - 02/26/2007 : 22:08:01
I should try harder to say why it didn't work out. Hhmmm... I was right in thinking that it would lack shape � without the flashback style, it would have been a disaster. There are too many details along the way and one has no idea which are important. The issue at the end (the revealed Bay of Pigs secret) is not told dynamically enough. Perhaps, as a show of trusting his son, Wilson should have told him outright. Then the whole business with his fiancee is unclear - it makes no sense that he would tell her the secret, even during sex. He has grown up with all that stuff. (It doesn't come across that he wants to break away from the style of his parents' relationship.) Then the Soviets have some kind of confusing deal to offer Wilson, and even more confusingly the woman gets killed anyway. To stop her defecting with the son? Who knows? This weak finale is then followed by the insipid suicide note, and that's about it. |
| Demisemicenturian |
Posted - 02/26/2007 : 21:54:04
O.K., this is not a review. Just miscellaneous thoughts that I jotted down while viewing. I woke up yesterday with a horrible headache and almost backed out, but I bought and took some asparin (something I loathe doing) and threw myself into it. I had my favourite cinema seat in London, so that was a good start. Was it all downhill from there?
The opening scene, which turns out to be secret footage (although of course I already knew this and it is probably obvious anyway) struck me in terms of how much the camera angle and zoom changed. This does not make any sense, even if the camera is supposed to be manned. The bizarrely fuzzy image also does not fit with the crisp sound, although it could be meant to be that we see the surveillance image but the �real� sound � for some unclear purpose or other.
Wilson (Matt Damon) appears and his age is unclear, but looks very likely to be between thirty and forty. We discover that this is 1961 � an unprepared audience would be flabbergasted when the film soon jumps to 1939 and he is there too, barely any different. In general, the ageing in the film is extremely poor, possibly the worst I�ve ever seen. Angelina Jolie looks even less like a twenty-year-old than Damon, and still less like a forty-year-old. Sam (Alec Baldwin) is middle-aged in 1939 (and of course identical in 1961), but it turns out later that he is supposed to be a similar age to Wilson.
Wilson passes through a door very firmly marked �NOT AN EXIT�. I assumed this would be significant, but nothing that I noticed came of it.
It is shown near the beginning that they use dollar notes, given to people at some point in the past, to identify them later. This was a nice touch whether factual or not, though I hope so. This was the most interesting intelligence detail (although I already knew about it). The evidence used towards the end to pinpoint the black-and-white tape�s filming location was also quite satisfying, if not quite convincing. Also, it did not make any sense that, once they were down to three cities, they went there in person (with Wilson conveniently going to the correct one) rather than see whether agents who had been there or photographs could identify the church tower depicted.
There is a flashback to Wilson�s childhood where he finds his father after his suicide. He hides the truth from his mother, i.e. he was already closed off emotionally, or this made him so. The child is the father of the man, blah blah blah. I found this rather lazy, although useful for one of my accolades!
The colours in the film vary between extremely muted and quite muted. This worked quite well, although it would have worked better in a more interesting film. The first scene with (relatively) warm colours is the poetry professor�s room, to indicate that Wilson does allow himself to feel warmth for him, later proven by his sense of betrayal and slightly caring that he gets killed. Another slightly colourful scene is when the Wilson family goes to a Christmas party. The son is, rather extremely, dressed in a Reservoir Dogs outfit, while all the other children and indeed adults are in normal Christmassy garb. Sitting on Santa�s lap, he wets himself (presumably overwhelmed by sitting on a friendly man�s lap or some such). Wilson suddenly has an epiphany and tenderly takes him to the bathroom to clean him up, where the son gives him a hug and is then dressed in some spare Christmassy garb lying around the house. Thus scenes warm in colour are warm for Wilson etc. etc.
Sam sets 1939 Wilson up by leaving a hat on a bench (at night) for him to walk past. He states that not one in 100 would walk past it as Wilson did. This is somehow proof of his being a good spy, whereas one would have thought observational skills ranked quite highly.
Clover (Jolie) comes on to Wilson like a right old slapper, pulling her knickers down etc. When they are about to have sex, she inexplicably and repeatedly demands that he say �I love you�, completely at odds with her clearly carnal desires. I can only assume that pre-Jolie casting Clover was supposed to be marginally more demure.
Once the war has started and the Americans have joined in, one of them makes the obligatory remark of a World War II film � �They can�t win without us� but they look down on us anyway (�They don�t share the royal tit with anyone without a title�).
Arch has got a ridiculous accent � completely unsuitable for a spy, who should presumably be bland.
I noted down the comment �The British don�t eat their own� � I cannot remember the context, but it was annoying.
Every time it goes back in time (or at least often), it starts in black and white and fades into colour. This is very clich�d.
Wilson�s test of the pretend-deaf woman is not very conclusive. She has not said that she has zero hearing without her hearing aid, and he uses her name, which everyone is hypersensitive to. She is also looking into a mirror and could have seen him.
Although I was familiar with the characters in advance, it was very difficult to keep track of who was who. There were several pairs of white men of similar shapes that I couldn�t distinguish.
Wilson gives away a major secret while talking outside an open, lit bathroom window. It is idiotic to think that he would do that.
One of Clover�s only good lines is �Bonemen first, God second� in reference to the order of proceeding at a dinner of the secret society. Twenty years later, she tellingly parallels this with �Agency first, God second�.
Clover goes to live with her mother in Phoenix. Since she is clearly a New England WASP, it is a mystery why her mother would be in Phoenix.
When Wilson is in the Congo talking to his son about the woman he wants to marry, the son�s lack of acting ability and philtrum are particularly and distractingly clear. During all discussions of the son�s choice of fianc�e, no one shows any sign of racism or xenophobia � I would suggest this is not exactly realistic.
Wilson eventually reads his father�s letter, an extraordinarily unspecific admission of his guilt � presumably the writers could not be bothered to think of what treason he had committed.
All in all, it was better than I expected, which was that it would be very bad. This is unsurprising, since I respond to most films more positively than average. The central character was slightly sympathetic, as was the wife (fractionally), though not the adult son. Rather than being just in the middle, the film seemed to me both quite good and quite bad, in a way that I couldn't pin down, cf. bittersweetness or when a man is both sort of ugly and sort of good-looking. In the middle, I weighed up whether to go to sleep and wake up just before the end, as there was just so much of it. I plumped for staying awake but, while I was not exactly bored, I wanted it to end.
I think in my/this case, going into it blind would have been somewhat beneficial. The details of the plot would have been even harder to follow, but it would have given me something to do. As it was, I did not really pick out a lot from it. I did not even really notice the acting, apart from the adult son (the child son was much better), so I suppose it was fine, though it can't have been outstanding. I suppose Pesci's one minute was not too bad. |
| Demisemicenturian |
Posted - 02/25/2007 : 01:28:01
I am planning to see this tomorrow and, frankly, I am dreading it. (I was going to wait in order to gather more info, but I'd like to see it before the Oscars).
Other than M0rkeleb's very helpful description of the plot, I have read reviews on the I.M.D.B. until I was not learning anything new. One of these was a detailed list of all spying equipment/methods used, so that was a useful addition for the purposes here.
My preconception is that the film is overlong and rather shapeless, Damon's character is unsympathetic, Jolie is completely miscast (this is obvious from the trailer) and none of the characters age realistically.
This is a big departure for me. I never read reviews till afterwards and while I cannot avoid trailers altogether, I usually read a newspaper rather than focus on them. My ideal is to not even know the genre of a film, so this I am not imagining that this will be a fun experience. I'll report back about anything that I get from the film despite this. |
| BaftaBaby |
Posted - 02/14/2007 : 01:21:19
quote:
Originally posted by Salopian
Thanks. I didn't expect anyone to add so much! 
If anyone has anything more, keep it coming.
Next time you're around Leicester Square pop into the Westminster Reference Library on St Martin's Street behind the Odeon. It has a wonderful collection of material on the performing arts, including all the NY Times film reviews since forever.
check it out
Also, I'm not sure whether or not you need to be a member of the BFI or not to use their phenomenal library devoted to all things filmy. Actually I think you can buy a day pass. It's on 21 Stephen Street just off Tottenham Court Rd.
Happy Hunting, and I wish you happiness and courage and delight with your challenge
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| Demisemicenturian |
Posted - 02/13/2007 : 19:26:14
Thanks. I didn't expect anyone to add so much!
If anyone has anything more, keep it coming. |
| MM0rkeleb |
Posted - 02/13/2007 : 18:00:18
Well, I saw this movie the day it came out (my girlfriend's a big Angelina Jolie fan), so let's see what I can remember of the plot.
The movie jumps back and forth between the present (during and directly after the Bay of Pigs fiasco) and the rise of Edward Wilson in first the OSS and then the CIA. In the present, the CIA is in a state of minor disarray after the Cubans got the jump on us, and everyone wants to know how they found us out. Wilson gets an ambiguous clue in the form of a grainy video which features a man and a woman in a room somewhere, just after sex. She's saying something about how she loves him and he's safe with her or something like that. He finds this video on his doorstep when he gets home the day after BoP. After calling his son, Edward Jr., to make sure he's fine and give some sort of instructions (I can't remember what), he reminisces ...
It's in the 1930's and Wilson is a student at Yale. After a performance of 'HMS Pinafore' where Wilson played Buttercup, he is approached by representatives of the Skull and Bones, seeking his membership. He accepts, and next thing you know he's going through the initation crap, though he almost pulls out when some members pisses on him while he's engaged in nude mud wrestling with the other initiates. If memory serves, one John Russell, Jr. convinces him to stick with it. Another part of the initiation requires Wilson to tell the Skull and Bones his deepest secret, the one thing he hasn't told and never will tell anyone else.
Wilson tells them of his father, who was suspected of ... something or other that was treasonous. The movie's pretty vague about what exactly. Anyway, one night at a party, when Wilson was a young lad, his father killed himself, leaving behind a suicide note. Young Wilson hid the note and convinced his mother that his father had died in an accident. As Wilson tells it to the S&B, he still has the note, still unopened and unread.
Things are looking up for Wilson. Not only is he now a part of the Skull and Bones, but he's also a rising star in the eyes of his poetry teacher and advisor Dr. Fredericks. However, Dr. Fredericks makes it clear that his interest in Wilson is not entirely academic, quoting to Wilson an excerpt from a romantic poem he claims to have written. Wilson does some research, and finds out the poem was not written by Dr. Fredericks. While at the library, he meets deaf coed Laura, and the two begin dating.
During this time he also has an encounter with mysterious FBI agent Sam Murach. Murach wants him to spy on Dr. Fredericks, who heads a secret Nazi-sympathizer club. Murach wants the names of the other faculty members, and figures Wilson can wrangle an invite to one of their meetings and do a little spying. Wilson complies, and next thing you know Dr. Fredericks is leaving the university in disgrace. Before he goes, he makes it clear to Wilson he know just who ratted on him, and Wilson throws the plagiarized poetry in his face, saying 'You betrayed me first' or something to that affect.
Mixed up in all this are the present-day (1961) things, but not a lot happens there. Wilson's boss, Phillip Allen, isn't happy, wants to know how the BoP stuff got leaked, and Wilson has the CIA boys looking at the tape he's received. Little by little, they discern clues from the grainy picture and the background sounds to narrow down the location, eventually to one of three locations in Africa. There also appears to be a personal effect of some kind on the nightstand. If they could figure out what it is, they'd have a good idea of who the leak is. Well, that's about all that happens in the present, so for now I'll stay in the past.
Back in the past, Wilson is having a grand old time at Yale with his sweetie Laura, even though they hear some news about WWII (I can't remember if it was the invasion of Poland or the bombing of Pearl Harbor). All this changes when Wilson goes to this big Skull and Bones event where he meets his pal John Russell Jr.'s sister Margaret (called Clover by her friends). This sultry lass (with a Sentorial father, natch) sets her sights on the reticent Wilson, and by the end of the night has coaxed a vigorous lay from him, although not until after Wilson meets with General Sullivan, who says the government is looking to create an espionage unit in Europe, and wants Wilson in it. As fate would have it, Clover gets pregnant, John Jr. tells Wilson he knows 'you'll do the right thing,' and there goes Laura.
There goes Wilson, too. Right after his marriage to Clover, he goes to England to learn espionage from British. And who should his mentor be but Dr. Fredericks, who was just pretending to be a Nazi-sympathizer to collect intelligence on Nazi-sympathizers in the US. Whoops! He is actually gay, though, and the Brits are getting a little worried about his lack of discretion in choosing partners. Arch Cummings, a new friend of Wilson's in the British intelligence unit, tells Wilson he is to give Fredericks one last chance to change his ways. If Fredericks refuses, Wilson is to give a signal which marks Fredericks for assassination.
But Fredericks is wilier than that. He figures out what is going on, politely refuses Wilson's attempts to help him, gives the signal himself, and goes to his death, but not before warning Wilson to get out of the espionage business before it destroys his soul.
Wilson does more stuff during the war, keeping in touch with Clover and Jr. He also starts a liason with his stenographer, a woman who wears a hearing aid. He also meets his Soviet counterpart, known as Ulysses, who is now his enemy since the war's winding down and all. One night, Wilson tests his lover, and discerns that she's not really hard of hearing, and thus a spy. The next day, Ulysses finds her finger in his tea.
Once the war's over, Wilson comes home and meets his son for the first time. He brings with him a gift - a medallion with the impression of a ship on it. Once alone, Wilson and Clover admit they've both had affairs, and agree to sleep in separate rooms until they can get used to each other again.
Wilson is visited at his home by General Russell, who talks with him about the possibility of creating a permanent intelligence agency. Russell voices concerns about such an agency being too powerful, and says it needs civilian oversight. Wilson assuages his concerns, but not before castigating his young son for playing in the neighboring room, where he could easily, accidentally, eavesdrop.
I have a hard time remembering the chronology of the next few bits, so bear with me.
Over the next dozen or so years, the dediated and patriotic Wilson skirmishes with Ulysses in various ways. Cheif among them is the matter of Valentin Mironov, a defector from the KGB who comes bringing info about Ulysses and his associates. Wilson has his men grill Mironov for a while, the Russian asserting his identity, along with his skill at playing the violin. Eventually, Wilson is satisfied, and welcomes Mironov to the US. Arch Cummings is also there to welcome him, and gives him the ironic gift of a copy of James Joyce's 'Ulysses.'
But wouldn't you know it, Wilson eventually hears from another defector who also claims to be Valentin Mironov. This one is questioned much more harshly, seeing as Wilson doesn't really believe him. The interrogators try using LSD on him to get the truth. Under the influence of the drug, he claims the USSR is on the verge of falling apart right before jumping out the window to his death.
This whole incident raises Wilson's suspicions, and he gets a closer look at the copy of 'Ulysses' Cummings gave to Mironov. In there, he finds faked documents, indicting the first Mironov and Cummings as double agents. Wilson exposes Cummings, who has gone into hiding, and goes to Mironov's house. He asks to hear Mironov play, which he does, beautifully. Wilson remarks he wanted to hear something true from Mironov, and then kills him.
Also somewhere in this middle section of the film, Wilson runs into Laura again. They have an affair, and someone (don't remember who) alerts Clover via surreptitiously taken photos of the lovebirds. Incensed, she makes a scene at another Skull and Bones party, then goes off to live with her mother in Phoenix.
Junior, however, stays behind, following in his father's footsteps, to Yale, Skull and Bones, and even the CIA. He says he wants to join the CIA to make his father proud, and Clover tries to get Wilson to talk him out of it, but Wilson refuses, saying the boy has to make his own choices.
Another couple of fragments from this middle section: at one point, the CIA sends a man to infiltrate some Russian-backed coffee plants in Central America. Before the man (a Yalie) goes, Wilson advises him to not wear his Yale ring, since that marks him as a spy. Sure enough, the man's finger, with ring still on it, is sent back to Wilson in a coffee can. At some point, Wilson meets with a mobster played by Joe Pesci to get help with ... something. I really can't remember what. But they have some memorable dialouge, much of which is featured in the trailer.
Anyway, by now, we're more or less back in the present for good. Wilson is poking around in one of the three possible African locations, and finds the room featured in the film. He also finds his son's medallion on the nightstand. You see, shortly before the Bay of Pigs, Edward had been talking about it with some of his CIA cohorts (including Phillip Allen) at a Skull and Bones gathering. Junior was in the next room taking a bath, and claimed to have heard nothing. Liar.
Anyway, Wilson meets with Ulysses, who (I think) offers to protect Junior if Wilson does him some favors. He also indicates the matter has grown quite delicate on both sides, since Junior and the woman from the tape, a spy for the Soviets, have actually fallen in love, and the woman intends to leave espionage to marry Junior. Naturally, Ulysses is opposed to this, and also makes threats against the woman. You'll have to forgive me here, because the dialogue in this section was so damn obfuscating I couldn't quite tell exactly what was being offered/threatened/denied/whatever, but I think Wilson refuses Ulysses's offer. However, Ulysses says he'll leave Junior alive, and intimates that Wilson owes him. The woman, however, is thrown from the plane that is flying her to her wedding with Junior. Both Clover and Junior suspect Wilson had something to do with it (especially Junior, who earlier had some speech about how he was shaped by his lifelong fear of spies, a fear caused by his father's secretive nature or something like that).
Anyway, Wilson digs up some dirt on Philllip Allen, which forces Allen to resign, thus drawing the attention away from the Bay of Pigs matter and allowing Wilson to sweep the whole thing under the rug. Wilson returns to his daily routine. But one night, he decides to finally open the note his father left behind. In the note, Father confirms the suspicions about his treacherous sympathies. After reading it, Edward burns it.
Fin. |
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