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GHcool 
"Forever a curious character."
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 Posted - 01/22/2007 : 23:56:05
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| I was browsing through early 20th century shorts to write reviews about on IMDb and came across this one. The title of the film contains a racial epithet. I can think of at least one review that would probably get a lot of votes, but due to the circumstances, I thought it was best to consult the rest of the group before adding this film to our database as its title is offensive and has great potential for inspiring equally offensive reviews from users of this site (not that I think anybody here is racist, but one person's joke could be very hurtful for others). I'd especially like to hear from some of the African American users of this site how they would feel if films like this were to be put on this site ... |
Edited by - GHcool on 01/22/2007 23:57:19 |
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BaftaBaby 
"Always entranced by cinema."
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Posted - 01/23/2007 : 00:57:46
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quote:
Originally posted by GHcool
I was browsing through early 20th century shorts to write reviews about on IMDb and came across this one. The title of the film contains a racial epithet. I can think of at least one review that would probably get a lot of votes, but due to the circumstances, I thought it was best to consult the rest of the group before adding this film to our database as its title is offensive and has great potential for inspiring equally offensive reviews from users of this site (not that I think anybody here is racist, but one person's joke could be very hurtful for others). I'd especially like to hear from some of the African American users of this site how they would feel if films like this were to be put on this site ...
Similar titles of silent/shorts follows in beige:
* A Coon Cake Walk (1897)
* Hallow-e'en in Coon-Town (1897)
* The Mail-Man in Coon-Town (1900)
* A Nigger in the Woodpile (1904)
* The Wooing and Wedding of a Coon (1905)
* The Nigger (1915)
* Mr. Coon (1917)
* Catching a Coon (1921)
All listed on imdb
And yeah, I'd be offended. There's a difference between us and imdb -- they aim to be as extensive a database as possible. We're trying to meet a quantitative challenge in a witty manner. Mind you, I'm dubious about some FWFRs I've seen which try to emulate Chinese/Japanese pronunciations, as though that in itself were funny. It's racist.
I think the test is whether you'd feel comfortable saying those things to a member of the ethnicity you're mocking. Which is VERY different from members of that ethnicity making the same jokes about themselves.
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BiggerBoat 
"Pass me the harpoon"
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Posted - 01/23/2007 : 01:37:12
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Yeah, it's thin ice you're walking on when you enter this kind of territory. You can, in theory, adopt the ignorance of the era the film came from, but in these enlightened times it's probably best to steer clear, if for no other reason than to not encourage questionable reviews.
I at one time was toying with the idea of entering a review for The Tiger Woods Story: 'Golf's first Thai-Coon', but as much as it was a clever play on words, and even in its backhanded (and racist) way a tribute to one of the supreme sporting beings on this planet, I was never going to submit it because it went against everything I stand for. Some may have regarded it as an acceptable lapse in standards for the sake of wordplay, but I belive that we have a duty to uphold certain principles, regardless of how we can skew words to fit the tight brief of this site.
I'm less inclined to agree with Baffy that focussing on pronunciation is necessarily racist. I think accents are fair game - it was the basis of more than half the jokes in Lost in Translation, and that was by no means a racist film, it just pointed out the difference in speech between nationalities when speaking a foreign language. Out here in the real world I'm quite an impersonator - I do lots of different accents in different situations and it's fascinating to see the reactions of those around me. When I do regional UK accents nobody has a problem, but when I do other nations, such as Indian or African, some regard it as potentially racist - but it isn't, it's merely an impersonation of an accent without any knid of disregard for those who speak in that manner.
I think there are certain political correctness ideals we should adhere to, but we shouldn't ignore the fact that there are differences between every group, large or small, on this planet, and those differences can be quite funny without any kind of maliciousness intended.
Peace out
BB |
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Downtown 
"Welcome back, Billy Buck"
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Posted - 01/23/2007 : 03:02:03
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Well if the point is that turn of the century entertainment featured a lot of racism, then I agree and this is not news. Minstrel shows were big in that day. But these films exist and I don't think their inclusion here is any sort of endorsement of their content. I'm not sure discussing the elimination of films we find unpleasant is a place we should be going. There are a lot of films here that are just as racist as those on bafta's list, they just have different titles. And one of those on the list is actually just as historic as Birth of a Nation.
Of course, nobody should review anything that makes them personally uncomfortable. And I think we can speak with our votes on individual reviews. |
Edited by - Downtown on 01/23/2007 03:08:06 |
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ChocolateLady 
"500 Chocolate Delights"
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Posted - 01/23/2007 : 07:19:41
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What was, was. What is, is. Old movies with racist titles shouldn't make us shudder today. That's the way they talked back then and we simply must remember when the movie was made. And they're only words, after all. Meanings of words do change over time (not all, but some). Take my "Happy Heteros" accolade where the word 'gay' appears in all the titles but none of the films have anything to do with homosexuals.
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GHcool
"Forever a curious character."
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Posted - 01/23/2007 : 07:20:23
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Thank you, BiggerBoat having the good sense to not submit that Tiger Woods review, despite the fact that it satisfies all the criteria for being an acceptable (and, arguably, vote-worthy) review. I disagree with ChocolateLady comparison of the changing connotation in the word "gay" because the words I'm referring to are designed to be hurtful and always have and still are to some extent, whereas "gay" (meaning "homosexual") is a neutral, albiet colloquial, term akin to the word "black" (meaning dark skinned person of African decent).
For those who didn't click on my link in my first post, the title of the specific film in question was a short called "The Mail-Man in Coon Town" (1900). The review that immediately came to my mind was "Black mail." There are several moral issues at work here that I think need to be addressed sooner rather than later by all of us:
1. Is "The Mail-Man in Coon Town" and other similarly titled films acceptable for inclusion in the FWFR database simply because it is acceptable for inclusion in the IMDb database?
2. If we decide that it is acceptable for inclusion in the FWFR database, should the MERPs judge reviews submitted for these films by the same standards that they do for reviews for other films?
3. Would fwfrers be inclined to vote for reviews that are accepted for these films, or would they make a point of not voting for them even if the wordplay was clever?
4. Will fwfrers submit reviews for these films?
The probability that the answer would be "Yes" is probably highest for Question 4 and steadily decreases as one reads up the list. My feeling is that if the answer is "No" to Questions 2-4, than the answer to Question 1 should also be "No." Any thoughts? |
Edited by - GHcool on 01/23/2007 07:33:28 |
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ChocolateLady
"500 Chocolate Delights"
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Posted - 01/23/2007 : 08:03:05
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Note that I added "not all, but some" regarding words changing meaning. It is very likely that 'coon' will never have a less negative connotation to it in the future than it does today - but who knows? Remember that at one time, in certain places, it wasn't considered to be an insult at all. You have to admit that 'nigger' has gone from 'accepted term' to 'really insulting' to 'acceptable, but only for African Americans to use with each other'. The terms 'negro' and 'black' were both considered PC at different times, but today they are not. This is my point. As for your points:
1. I think its up to Benj to decide if a film should be here or not - he's the one who adds them, it is his site and I think it should stay up to him.
2. If they are added, then the MERPs should decide on the reviews using the same standards as they do with all the other reviews.
3. I personally vote for reviews that I like, that I think are clever or that have a good pun - doesn't matter what film they're for. And I have voted for reviews that could have been considered insulting to one group or another.
4. I submit reviews if I can think of something clever or a good pun for them - again, what film they're for doesn't matter much. Of course, if they're in an accolade I'm trying to get, I'll try harder to submit a review for it.
Let's not forget this. |
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w22dheartlivie
"Kitty Lover"
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Posted - 01/23/2007 : 09:00:14
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I'm reminded of a thread I posted to on IMDB regarding AMC's treatment of Holiday Inn, wherein they cut the entire Lincoln's birthday sketch because of the use of blackface. To my mind, that was stretching the bounds of political correctness over the edge.
Having said that, I live in a very small community in the midwest (I'm sure we ALL know that by now). Over the years, it's been an all-white community, at least until the birth of my niece. When she was little, I had the most adorable picture of her in blue corduroy overalls and a t-shirt, holding a lace umbrella. At the place I worked, there were always those who thought that "N" jokes were cool. I developed a way to deal with that. In retrospect, it may have been questionable, but at the time, it came from an inflamed awareness of how my niece may not even be welcome in our hometown. I'd let the person tell me the joke, then I'd ask "Have I ever shown you a picture of my niece?" I'd show the picture and ask "could you explain how that is funny to her, please?" Fast forward to 23 years later and the same niece collects black memorabilia, for example, a set of Uncle Remus and Aunt Jemima salt & pepper shakers.
I guess my viewpoint is that it's relative. My niece was going to grow up in this town and we really wanted her spared the slurs and bigotry that we expected. As it turned out, she was not only totally accepted by her peers and townsfolk, she was popular. She was never called that N thing until she went to gymnastics classes in an integrated town. As for interest in collectibles, I think she sees them in the context of the time.
There are a handful of accepted reviews on the site that do use racial and sexual expletives. Several uses of the word "faggot," that do not refer to cigarettes, and one I saw about Jewish football players. I suppose it ultimately comes down to the good or bad taste of the reviewer and the mood of the merps. As a side note, though, most of those reviews had few votes. |
Edited by - w22dheartlivie on 01/23/2007 09:49:09 |
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Demisemicenturian
"Four ever European"
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Posted - 01/23/2007 : 09:32:17
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quote:
Originally posted by GHcool
I'd especially like to hear from some of the African American users of this site how they would feel if films like this were to be put on this site ...
So you only care to hear black people's opinion if they are American? (It's an American film but I don't think that affects things. I am pointing this out in a friendly way, but this is not the first time that I have known an American use 'African American' when they are actually referring to any black people. I have also read an interview with a black British actress who said that she as an individual had once been referred to this way!  ) |
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Demisemicenturian
"Four ever European"
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Posted - 01/23/2007 : 09:44:31
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quote:
Originally posted by BiggerBoat
I think accents are fair game - it was the basis of more than half the jokes in Lost in Translation, and that was by no means a racist film, it just pointed out the difference in speech between nationalities when speaking a foreign language.
I think accents can be impersonated in a non-racist way (I don't think that part of the recent B.B. furore was one of the possibly racist aspects, for example), but it also can be racist to do this. That aspect of Lost in Translation is I think racist, especially the absolutely unbearable "Lip my stocking" scene. |
Edited by - Demisemicenturian on 01/23/2007 09:52:22 |
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Demisemicenturian
"Four ever European"
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Posted - 01/23/2007 : 09:49:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Downtown
Well if the point is that turn of the century entertainment featured a lot of racism, then I agree and this is not news. But these films exist and I don't think their inclusion here is any sort of endorsement of their content.
I agree. I would hope that the clever people here would write good anti-racist reviews for such a film, like Whippersnapper(?)'s "Typically, Nigger dies first" (an improvement on my own long-ago posited "Nigger gets run down"). I would very much hope that people would not imagine it would be OK to write any old review that plays on coon or similar but which makes no comment. Experience on this site shows us that people are far less willing to make racist 'jokes' like that than they are sexist, homophobic or anti-disabled ones. |
Edited by - Demisemicenturian on 01/23/2007 09:50:37 |
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w22dheartlivie
"Kitty Lover"
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Posted - 01/23/2007 : 09:54:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Salopian
quote:
Originally posted by Downtown
Well if the point is that turn of the century entertainment featured a lot of racism, then I agree and this is not news. But these films exist and I don't think their inclusion here is any sort of endorsement of their content.
I agree. I would hope that the clever people here would write good anti-racist reviews for such a film, like Whippersnapper(?)'s "Typically, Nigger dies first" (an improvement on my own long-ago posited "Nigger gets run down"). I would very much hope that people would not imagine it would be OK to write any old review that plays on coon or similar but which makes no comment. Experience on this site shows us that people are far less willing to make racist 'jokes' like that than they are sexist, homophobic or anti-disabled ones.
I, too, have noticed that. See Brokeback Mountain. |
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Demisemicenturian
"Four ever European"
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Posted - 01/23/2007 : 09:54:23
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quote:
Originally posted by GHcool
"gay" (meaning "homosexual") is a neutral, albiet colloquial, term
Um, no. |
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Demisemicenturian
"Four ever European"
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Posted - 01/23/2007 : 09:56:12
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quote:
Originally posted by wildhartlivie
I, too, have noticed that. See Brokeback Mountain.
Believe me, it breaks my heart. This is my favourite film of all time and I find it really hurtful that it is the target of so many predictable puns based on intrinsically nasty slang. |
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Demisemicenturian
"Four ever European"
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Posted - 01/23/2007 : 09:59:12
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quote:
Originally posted by ChocolateLady
The term 'black' was considered PC, but today it is not. [paraphrased]
Is this really the case in the U.S.? It is definitely the completely proper term here. |
Edited by - Demisemicenturian on 01/23/2007 09:59:48 |
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BaftaBaby
"Always entranced by cinema."
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Posted - 01/23/2007 : 10:02:57
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quote:
Originally posted by GHcool
2. If we decide that it is acceptable for inclusion in the FWFR database, should the MERPs judge reviews submitted for these films by the same standards that they do for reviews for other films?
ESSAY ALERT! ESSAY ALERT!
To me, GHC's 2nd is the vital question. And it's a complex one.
A. I agree with CL that only Benj really has the right to rule on what can/can't be acceptable on FWFR.
B. And, honestly, I don't believe in censorship - though I do believe we should each have the right to define our moral code and live accordingly. As long as it doesn't harm anyone else.
C. My hesitation comes from some of the reviews I've seen here which feature gratuitous language justified, no doubt, by an attempt at humor [and some, I freely admit] are VERY funny. Nevertheless, sometimes I have taken offense at SOME reviews which generalize female behavior in a film and extrapolate it to the actress, or even more offensive, reviews that refer to a woman in derogatory terms for no reason at all.
In my reply to GHCool question of who might find something offensive, I replied that I would. I did NOT conclude that any specific film or review shouldn't be allowed. And yes, there's a difference.
It's certainly a legal requirement in the UK that part of what constitutes racist language is whether the ethnicity being mocked takes offense. Not whether the intention was to do so.
Anyone who's been following the current Big Brother race saga on UK tv has had to address this. The woman in question was called a "poppadom" [and possible other things which were edited out.] Without going into all the nooks and crannies: The TV regulator received over 40,000 complaints. The show's sponsor pulled out with immediate effect. The Board of the channel is in dialogue with the producers [both of whom have made hundreds of millions of pounds from this show] to redraft their editorial strategy. A national debate has been sparked around the very concept of racism -- it's featured in news, current affairs, and all kinds of shows. And questions have been asked in the House of Commons, and from some of the top politicians in the country.
That's how important this subject is.
I don't believe a man can define what may give offense to women, who not that long ago were legally considered to be the property of men. That's what Yoko Ono meant in her song: Woman is the nigger of the world.
For white people - and I am one - to argue that anyone can call them anything and they won't mind really isn't the issue. It hasn't been true for thousands of years, if ever, that whites were persecuted for the color of their skin. But 'people of color' have been. As have been people of certain faiths, no faith, and gender - most likely female.
There's another issue: there's a tendency in any closed group for repeated behavior to be interpreted as acceptable behavior. This is the way we're programmed to learn. Within families. Within classrooms. Within communities. FWFR is a community, even though most of us don't know each other. However comprehensive Benj can make the FAQs, we've all become acclimated to the site by observing what others do. And, because we have such a supportive community in one of the best-used 4UMs I've seen, we have the chance to clarify with each other what may be confusing.
Idle question: Since the phrase 'African American' isn't a universal condition.: how do Americans these days refer to black people in other countries? and suppose they don't come from Africa? [okay, if we go back far enough, we all come from Africa  ] Oops, just saw that Sal had made the same point!
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Edited by - BaftaBaby on 01/23/2007 10:24:19 |
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Film of highly questionable taste
