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Shiv 
"What a Wonderful World"
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 Posted - 01/26/2007 : 03:19:38
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quote:
Shiv, there are no absolute rules for threads, but netocol suggests that the thread initiator starts it for a particular reason, and it's not good form to hijack it for a different purpose. Note that GHcool has had to start a new thread as this one went off on a tangent. It's not a terribly big deal though, lively discussion rooms tend to go that way. 
I was responding to other people's posts. I didn't think GHcool's comment was directed at me since he/she didn't reply directly to any of my postings   but posted a general statement which came after my posting about Hotel Rwanda - which I agree was even further off topic, but only because I picked up on the thread of how a response to something can be a personal response which is hard to 'quantify'. I have since started another thread about what qualifies as a 'review'.
If the comment was directed at me, that's not fair as I was following on from a direction that other people were taking this discussion. This became a debate about words and their meanings and personal experiences/feelings (as opposed to whether to put the film in question on the database based on 'Coon' in the title thus allowing for possible racist postings) long before I started posting. Also, my postings have become irrelevant to the continuing discussion, which now seems to be about whether homosexuality is a choice. My question about a 'policy' is a genuine one. I think GHCool opened the possiblity for the thread going off tangent by asking the African American fwfrers to comment. That makes it personal - as in, directly addressing the social group that the word will potentially offend.
This I believe is why the postings went the way they did. There are hundreds of potentially offensive or racist reviews already on the site that have been approved which are not reliant on an offensive word in the film's title. I understood that this is in general what people were trying to say. The question might be whether there are criteria set up for what would be potentially racist - which comes back to why the thread went the way it did.
I shall check out whether the new thread has fared any better in getting an answer to the original question.
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Sean 
"Necrosphenisciform anthropophagist."
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Posted - 01/26/2007 : 03:49:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Conan The Westy
Some links may be of interest but generally people who have very strong views on topics aren't keen to be persuaded regarding ideas outside their personal paradigm (including me ).
Fortunately this doesn't apply to me on this subject.  I couldn't care less what the causes of homosexuality are (other than in an academic sense), whether genetic, environmental, social or whatever. Obviously for some people homosexuality 'conflicts' with religious dogma so there is a vested interest in finding it to be a choice rather than something beyond someone's control.quote:
Former Homosexual Says 'No one is born gay'
I pulled a couple of paragraphs out of this link:-
CBN.com � Stephen Bennett is a former homosexual, who lived the "gay" lifestyle for 11 years. Today he's married and has two young children. He's also a born-again Christian who has a ministry to men and women who want to be set free from homosexuality.
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I was in love with another man who was going to be my partner for life, until a Christian woman showed up at my door one day with a Bible and said that I could be set free from my homosexuality. That was back in 1990 and my life has never been the same again.
I didn't see much point reading beyond this, it's not an article about homosexuality, it's a testament to the change in someone's views on reality following a religious conversion. Similar to the atheist geologist who became a creationist following his conversion.
So is this guy gay? I'd guess so, and he's now yet another closet homosexual as a result of religious pressure (by that I mean the pressure he puts on himself to conform to his religious dogma). He may of course be bisexual, and be happy enough being married with children.quote:
Confession From A Former Homosexual
Some quotes again:-
I love and respect myself today, but I hate the things that I used to do. Homosexual sexuality is perverse and unhealthy, both physically and emotionally. We put on such a respectable image, but inside we were miserable and ashamed.
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Like many young gays, I tried to commit suicide because I didn't think there was a way out.
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They call it "gay", but I wasn't gay at all, I was miserable. I can't think of a more miserable way of life.
This guy would appear to be a poster child for depression and being generally screwed up. Next he says:-
Some people believe that compassion for homosexuals means approving of their lifestyle, but I thank God that others still have the guts to insist that it's wrong, otherwise I might still be trapped.
That three-letter word again. Then he links to the website of "Defend-the-Family.com" which is a service of "Abiding Truth Ministries" whose mission is to "To promote and defend the Biblical view of marriage and family..." He is also active with Oregon Citizen's Alliance which is a (from Wiki) conservative Christian political activist organization, founded by Lon Mabon. The group gained statewide, national, and international attention when in 1992 it proposed an amendment to the Oregon Constitution known as Ballot Measure 9. This amendment, according to its supporters, would have prevented what the OCA termed to be "special rights" for gays, lesbians, and bisexuals.
So, again it's the conflict between religion (particularly the old testament, I believe?) and homosexuality. There is definitely a conflict. So those two links illustrate the way in which people are able to change their lifestyle following a religious conversion. A lifestyle change and a sexuality change (which I don't believe is possible) are two very different things.*quote:
Is Sexual Orientation Fixed at Birth?
Interesting link. Researchers see sexuality as a probable combination of genetic-biological, hormonal, intrauterine, postnatal environment, social-psychological factors. Who am I to argue?
I saw nothing there that suggests sexuality is a 'choice'.quote:
I do remember reading an article from a homosexual activist in Sydney who expressed that he wasn't born gay but it was a lifestyle choice he had proudly made - I just wish I could find it. 
I'd guess this guy is bisexual, and prefers the lifestyle of a homosexual to a heterosexual. quote:
In the end though we'll probably agree to disagree.
I'd guess you're probably right.
* The "sexual lifestyle change upon religious conversion" can also work the other way. I.e., a Christian married with/without children who dumps his/her spouse upon 'losing their religion' and accepts their homosexuality that they'd repressed their whole life is a not-uncommon occurrence. An example:- I know a guy who was an Anglican vicar, was married to a devout but naive Christian woman (virgin upon marriage etc), they had two kids and were living a seemingly happy normal 'clean-living' Christian life. Then one day at the age of 12 their eldest son dropped dead suddenly from throat cancer. The vicar 'dumped his religion' (the death of his son was simply not compatible with his view of a Godly world), he left his wife and now lives life as a homosexual and has been happily gay for 20 years since. But his religion-induced suppression of his homosexuality left the inevitable train-wreck. Anyone want to imagine a devout Christian slowly realising that her vicar husband doesn't want to have sex with her because he's gay? (She had a mental breakdown by the way). Not to mention the way kids are supposed to deal with it.
I also know another family where social pressure forced a man into marriage, they had four kids, and at the age of about 50 he decided to accept reality and that he was gay and left his wife. Prior to that one of his daughters became a prostitute, and subsequently one of the sons had a sex change and is now a woman. Funnily enough, both he and his ex-wife believe the one who had the sex change is the happiest of their four kids. But, overall, I don't believe children of closet homosexuals (ie, those in denial of reality) get a particularly good head start in life. |
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Sean
"Necrosphenisciform anthropophagist."
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Posted - 01/26/2007 : 03:53:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Shiv
I was responding to other people's posts. I didn't think GHcool's comment was directed at me since he/she didn't reply directly to any of my postings
I can assure you it wasn't directed at you, it was directed at anyone who had hijacked his thread, which was just about everyone. 
Honestly, this is a non-issue, he's started a new thread on it. I'll try and avoid hijacking that one. |
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Shiv
"What a Wonderful World"
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Posted - 01/26/2007 : 03:59:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Se�n
quote:
Originally posted by Shiv
I was responding to other people's posts. I didn't think GHcool's comment was directed at me since he/she didn't reply directly to any of my postings
I can assure you it wasn't directed at you, it was directed at anyone who had hijacked his thread, which was just about everyone.
Honestly, this is a non-issue, he's started a new thread on it. I'll try and avoid hijacking that one.
No worries. I've just posted an 'on topic' comment on the other thread
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Conan The Westy 
"Father, Faithful Friend, Fwiffer"
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Posted - 01/26/2007 : 10:13:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Shiv
I was responding to other people's posts. I didn't think GHcool's comment was directed at me since he/she didn't reply directly to any of my postings
Most of us are believers in tangent-ial meditation. |
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Demisemicenturian
"Four ever European"
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Posted - 01/26/2007 : 15:41:18
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Originally posted by Downtown
I reject the notion that it's impossible to write a review of a film with a racist title that makes reference to the title itself without also being racist.
I think everone agrees on that. |
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Demisemicenturian
"Four ever European"
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Posted - 01/26/2007 : 15:43:42
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Originally posted by thefoxboy
Why should they be allowed in illegally when I have relatives that have been trying for many years to get into the country legally and can't?
I think your relatives should be allowed in too, if others were to be. However, I meant that there are better ways of rejecting illegal immigrants than this. |
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Demisemicenturian
"Four ever European"
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Posted - 01/26/2007 : 15:51:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Se�n
Did you consider that this may have been the result of the way you asked him to remove it? There's a big difference between asking someone to do something and demanding they do something. Like the "Farm AIDS" 'review', it's clearly wrong, but if I owned the site it would have remained on the site until such time as I was asked in a respectful manner to remove it.
I am not a fool. I am perfectly capable of asking for things charmingly when it would be a kindness of any degree to have them. I had already covered this above when I mentioned that people being prejudiced against do not have to crawl to the prejudiced in the hope of some kind of benevolence. "Farm AIDS" was completely wrong and A.C. was similarly completely in the wrong. As important as removing such travesties of reviews is, it's more important to make clear that they are wrong. It's gay people's right to not be referred to as transsexuals. Had A.C. deleted it, I would not be indebted to him in any way. |
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Demisemicenturian
"Four ever European"
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Posted - 01/26/2007 : 15:56:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Se�n
Well it is a claim to innocence. If some of his best friends are gay, then he's not a homophobe. If he is a homophobe, he wouldn't have best friends who are gay! The fact it's a cliche doesn't make it incorrect.
The cliched aspect only makes it cringeworthy. The fact itself (which I fully believe) makes it likely that he is very low on the homophobic spectrum, but I stand by my point that the notion that there are homophobes and non-homophobes, sexists and non-sexists is not meaningful.
I have got numerous friends (all of my friends, really) with opinions I believe to be wrong. This does not mean that I am not friends with them. |
Edited by - Demisemicenturian on 01/26/2007 16:19:16 |
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Demisemicenturian
"Four ever European"
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Posted - 01/26/2007 : 16:04:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Se�n
How many gay cowboy movies are there? One that I'm aware of.
Nought that I can think of. Brokeback Mountain is a gay shepherd movie... (I've neglected to stick to this fact myself, though, so I certainly don't mind others doing so.)
quote:
If gay cowboy movies become a new genre, I'd say it's certain that by the time the third movie is made the "gay cowboy sex" jokes will have dried up.
O.K., this is a fair point. However, it is still the case that straight men in general have a prurient fascination with and hyperbolic treatment of gay sex. This is rather annoying.
quote:
So, they can write whatever reviews they want.
My example wasn't strong enough; I could think of nothing better without becoming sexist. Wouldn't you be offended if almost every review for your favourite film was derogatory to you (while also being flippant and unoriginal)? Even if you think you do not mind derogatory statements, wouldn't it be severely aggravating that it was swamped like that, instead of having a normal mixture? |
Edited by - Demisemicenturian on 01/26/2007 16:20:02 |
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Demisemicenturian
"Four ever European"
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Posted - 01/26/2007 : 16:08:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Se�n
I think for a change I'd better come down on Salopian's side here. It is absolutely, totally inborn.
Thanks. The idea that anyone would choose such an inconvenient thing, where they are far less likely to find a partner, even less likely to have children, stereotyped and discriminated against is beyond absurdity. Above all, given that one cannot choose the individuals with whom one falls in love, the notion that one can choose the general category of person with whom one falls in love is patently illogical. |
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Demisemicenturian
"Four ever European"
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Posted - 01/26/2007 : 16:11:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Conan The Westy
And yet there are "former homosexuals"
Hhmmm, these always seem to be in religious contexts - how strange. Some bisexual people's balance of preference varies during different parts of their life - this is the best explanation for anything approaching real cases. [Ah, Sean seems to have covered all of this amply. ] |
Edited by - Demisemicenturian on 01/26/2007 16:21:55 |
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Demisemicenturian
"Four ever European"
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Posted - 01/26/2007 : 16:28:08
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| Re: this whole 'lifestyle' nonsense, yes one can choose one's lifestyle (and perhaps be unhappy as a result, but that's a different matter). However, sexuality should not be defined by actions, or even whom would prefer to have sex with. Anyone could have sex with anyone if they had to. It can only reasonably be defined by the gender of person with whom one has the capacity to fall in love. Compared to love, sex is an irrelevance. |
Edited by - Demisemicenturian on 01/26/2007 16:28:36 |
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Demisemicenturian
"Four ever European"
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Posted - 01/26/2007 : 16:34:40
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| Re: Christianity/homosexuality, the passages where the latter is imagined to be disallowed seem either to be about something else altogether or to be completely idiotic. The men of Sodom were in the wrong because they raped angels. Another 'key' condemnation is in the same section as the equally condemned crimes of sowing different plants in the same field and wearing cloth made of two materials, amongst numerous other wacky proclamations. |
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Downtown 
"Welcome back, Billy Buck"
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Posted - 01/26/2007 : 17:53:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Conan The Westy
quote:
Originally posted by Se�n
quote:
Originally posted by Conan The Westy
Sal, I have no wish to get into a slanging match about whether sexuality is inborn or a preference.
I think for a change I'd better come down on Salopian's side here. It is absolutely, totally inborn.
And yet there are "former homosexuals" - how can it be? I typed that phrase into Google and came up with 34,500 hits (not a very scientific approach I admit but...). Some links may be of interest but generally people who have very strong views on topics aren't keen to be persuaded regarding ideas outside their personal paradigm (including me).
Former Homosexual Says 'No one is born gay'
Confession From A Former Homosexual
Is Sexual Orientation Fixed at Birth?
I do remember reading an article from a homosexual activist in Sydney who expressed that he wasn't born gay but it was a lifestyle choice he had proudly made - I just wish I could find it.
In the end though we'll probably agree to disagree.
If this is all purely theoretical, than I have no problem agreeing to disagree. But I've found that almost exclusively, claims that it's a "lifestyle choice" are made merely as a prelude to arguing why it's okay to discriminate against gays by denying them the civil rights that everyone else is entitled to, because if they don't like it they can just "choose" to stop being that way.
But I'm willing to agree that anyone can "choose" to lie to themselves and everyone else about who they are and live a life of total misery just to conform to someone else's ideas about who it's okay to love. The human brain is an amazing thing, with proper conditioning someone can be made to believe almost anything...even that they're not gay.
In any case, there's a glaring lack of PEER-REVIEWED SCIENTIFIC ARTICLES supporting your position...or at least, peer-reviewed articles that aren't several decades old. |
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Film of highly questionable taste
