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Downtown 
"Welcome back, Billy Buck"
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 Posted - 01/23/2007 : 18:20:36
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Sal, would you advocate banning use of the word "Jew" as a verb, with its obvious negative meaning? There are a number of documentaries out there about abortion clinics. Should we ban any reviews from pro-lifers that refer to these clinics as murderers? If my profession was family planning, I would consider such a term a personal attack against me. Should we exclude Holocaust-denial documentaries or at least reviews that imply those documentaries are correct? What if someone from Turkey takes offense to a film documenting the Armenian Holocaust? As a general rule they don't accept that history as fact and seem to honestly believe that point of view. If I thought someone was falsely accusing my culture of a crime against humanity, I'd be pretty damned offended...even if I was wrong.
You see the direction this takes us? Benj decided a long time ago that this was not going to be a G-rated or even PG-rated website. It's not what the entertainment industry would call "family friendly," and there's plenty of material here that many would consider extremely offensive for reasons entirely unrelated to "Political Correctness." This website is full of four letter words, graphic descriptions of sexual acts, lewd behavior, violence, etc, etc. To decide that something which is offensive for reason X should be excluded while something that's offensive for reason Y is acceptable seems somewhat arbitrary, when ultimately the issue is the same: it offends someone's sensibilities to look at that word.
You're right it's benj's website and ultimately benj's policy. You're also right that it's perfectly legal to censor this website, there's no constitutional issue here. But since we're all chiming in with our opinions, mine is that this site should not be censored. I applaud your efforts to try to change people's thinking and behavior and convince them of your own point of view, but that doesn't mean there should be a policy that strictly requires adherence to that point of view. If you don't think certain words should be used for the sake of humor, then by all means keep voicing your opinion. You can even message FWFRers about individual reviews if you think they go over the line. I once asked someone to delete a review that made me personally uncomfortable (it had nothing to do with Political Correctness), making it clear they were under no obligation to do so and that I wouldn't think any less of them if they refused, but would consider it a personal favor if they did. They actually carried out my request. Asking often works. But banning words and movies? Uh uh. |
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Demisemicenturian 
"Four ever European"
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Posted - 01/23/2007 : 18:25:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Downtown
If my profession was family planning, I would consider such a term a personal attack against me.
That is not the same at all. People choose their professions, and they have to accept anyone's right to criticise those fields. |
Edited by - Demisemicenturian on 01/23/2007 18:32:00 |
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Demisemicenturian
"Four ever European"
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Posted - 01/23/2007 : 18:31:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Downtown
But banning words and movies?
I am definitely not up for banning any films. I also would probably not ban words here � my point was that people should choose not to use those words and they are in the wrong if they persist. I would say that certain extreme reviews (with unambiguously unacceptable attitudes) should be deleted, like the one I mentioned. Allowing them would be to allow such views to be spread. When we write good reviews, we are helping to attract traffic to this site. Thus if offensive reviews are here, I am helping them to be read by people. That is not what I would like to do. I cannot determine the situation that I can continue here without that, but I will certainly try my best to achieve it. |
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Demisemicenturian
"Four ever European"
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Posted - 01/23/2007 : 18:35:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Downtown
To decide that something which is offensive for reason X should be excluded while something that's offensive for reason Y is acceptable seems somewhat arbitrary, when ultimately the issue is the same: it offends someone's sensibilities to look at that word.
It does not seem arbitrary to me, because of the demeaning and specific connotations of the words, as I have mentioned. People are not demeaned by someone saying fuck (if it's not about them - fucking black people, in a non-sex context, would be as bad as single racist terms). It is quite clear that people deserve more respect than body parts or actions. |
Edited by - Demisemicenturian on 01/23/2007 20:07:05 |
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BiggerBoat 
"Pass me the harpoon"
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Posted - 01/23/2007 : 19:10:45
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Hey, I've got a great joke:
What do you call a black fireman?
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Why a fireman, of course, you RACIST! |
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thefoxboy 
"Four your eyes only."
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Demisemicenturian
"Four ever European"
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Posted - 01/23/2007 : 20:06:37
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| This actually makes quite a good point. This product is not tarnished by using this name, because the word is actually now relatively obscure. A lot of young people would not know what it meant. Therefore, it is possible to let these terms enter virtual obsolescence - but continuing to use them, in any sense, will counter that. |
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GHcool 
"Forever a curious character."
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Posted - 01/23/2007 : 20:19:10
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I think Downtown and I pretty much agree on how we should deal with offensive reviews. Don't vote for them and, if the review is particularly offensive, feel free to PM benj or the reviewer telling them how you feel. I did it once for a review for Jewish Football that is still there, though it has since been disowned to Alan Smithee (not good enough IMO, but so be it).
But this is a different, albiet related, topic to the one I brought up. I'd like to hear benj's comments on this, but I would also like to hear what people think about the addition of movies with racist vocabulary in the titles and in their content and not just racism in general or even racism on FWFR in general. |
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randall
"I like to watch."
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Posted - 01/23/2007 : 21:20:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Salopian
quote:
Originally posted by GHcool
I'd especially like to hear from some of the African American users of this site how they would feel if films like this were to be put on this site ...
So you only care to hear black people's opinion if they are American? (It's an American film but I don't think that affects things. I am pointing this out in a friendly way, but this is not the first time that I have known an American use 'African American' when they are actually referring to any black people. I have also read an interview with a black British actress who said that she as an individual had once been referred to this way!  )
Hmmm. Consider all the shit John Kerry's wife, Teresa Heinz Kerry, caught when she calmly told people she was an African-American. She is! She was born in Mozambique! So, has that term become racist in and of itself? Evidently so...
By the way, Boat, your self-censored Tiger Woods review contains very clever wordplay, but IMHO your instinct was correct. It doesn't belong here. That's just my gut feeling. |
Edited by - randall on 01/23/2007 21:37:49 |
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randall
"I like to watch."
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Posted - 01/23/2007 : 21:21:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Salopian
quote:
Originally posted by GHcool
"gay" (meaning "homosexual") is a neutral, albiet colloquial, term
Um, no.
Um, yes. |
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Downtown
"Welcome back, Billy Buck"
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Posted - 01/23/2007 : 21:49:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Randall
By the way, Boat, your self-censored Tiger Woods review contains very clever wordplay, but IMHO your instinct was correct. It doesn't belong here. That's just my gut feeling.
Actually I disagree, but I consider this a special case. The reason why I don't think that crosses the line is because it's basically just a variation on Woods's own nickname which he himself markets himself under. None of you thought his name was really "Tiger," right? |
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randall
"I like to watch."
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Posted - 01/23/2007 : 21:52:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Downtown
quote:
Originally posted by Randall
By the way, Boat, your self-censored Tiger Woods review contains very clever wordplay, but IMHO your instinct was correct. It doesn't belong here. That's just my gut feeling.
Actually I disagree, but I consider this a special case. The reason why I don't think that crosses the line is because it's basically just a variation on Woods's own nickname which he himself markets himself under. None of you thought his name was really "Tiger," right?
Nope but "Eldrick" doesn't translate to "Coon." |
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Downtown
"Welcome back, Billy Buck"
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Posted - 01/23/2007 : 22:04:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Randall
quote:
Originally posted by Downtown
quote:
Originally posted by Randall
By the way, Boat, your self-censored Tiger Woods review contains very clever wordplay, but IMHO your instinct was correct. It doesn't belong here. That's just my gut feeling.
Actually I disagree, but I consider this a special case. The reason why I don't think that crosses the line is because it's basically just a variation on Woods's own nickname which he himself markets himself under. None of you thought his name was really "Tiger," right?
Nope but "Eldrick" doesn't translate to "Coon."
Eldrick? No, of course not. But half of his nickname most certainly does translate to that. Perhaps it would be a bit more obvious if I were to use the original spelling of his nickname when he first got it: "Thai-gger." |
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randall
"I like to watch."
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Posted - 01/23/2007 : 22:33:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Downtown
quote:
Originally posted by Randall
quote:
Originally posted by Downtown
quote:
Originally posted by Randall
By the way, Boat, your self-censored Tiger Woods review contains very clever wordplay, but IMHO your instinct was correct. It doesn't belong here. That's just my gut feeling.
Actually I disagree, but I consider this a special case. The reason why I don't think that crosses the line is because it's basically just a variation on Woods's own nickname which he himself markets himself under. None of you thought his name was really "Tiger," right?
Nope but "Eldrick" doesn't translate to "Coon."
Eldrick? No, of course not. But half of his nickname most certainly does translate to that. Perhaps it would be a bit more obvious if I were to use the original spelling of his nickname when he first got it: "Thai-gger."
First [if you're really serious], I need your source for that "fact." Go here for another explanation.
Second, the word "coon" is a hateful pejorative that, unlike the other word you're alluding to, has never found even a teasing place within the black community. It produces a similar reaction to the one Brits get in the States when they bandy around the word "c--t." |
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Paddy C
"Does not compute! Lame!"
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Posted - 01/23/2007 : 23:29:13
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When I signed up for a hotmail account back in 1996 (ooh they were happy days they were) I was told in an automated message from Hotmail's account set-up that my initial stab at a mail address ([email protected]) was unacceptable due to the fact that it contained an indecent, obscene or offensive term. 
The context of the printed word is less forgiving than face-to-face interactions, where more risks can be taken, and explained or apologised for if mistakes are made. Also the printed word can cause offence more easily and - on this site - the confines of four words don't allow for much context at all.
So in a possibly vain attempt to avoid the finer points of this debate, I propose three things:
1. Do not add the films featuring the word 'Coon' as this is definitely dodgy ground, whether the films were made in 1900 or 2007.
2. As GHCool has done here, think of the context, or if it helps, imagine being overheard speaking the review out loud on the bus... e.g Brokeback Mountain: 'Cowboys enjoy ranch undressing'.. would i get beaten up for that? Hopefully not.
3. Problem with a review or movie title? Raise the issue in the forum, as GHCool has done here also.
Misunderstandings will happen due to the different idiosyncracies of UK/US/Aussie/Kiwi/Irish/Israeli English and the different cultural contexts, but this is a sensible group, we can sort em out on a one by one basis...
Interesting thread though, don't stop talking on my account!   |
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Film of highly questionable taste
