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MisterBadIdea 
"PLZ GET MILK, KTHXBYE"
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 Posted - 04/10/2007 : 14:59:15
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| BaftaBabe hasn't yet responded, but if, as I suspect, she believes that Lester Burnham's hypocrisy was intentional and ironic, I did think of that. (There's also that scene where Thora Birch calls him a child, which also throws a wrench in my criticism.) But I can't buy it completely, because Kevin Spacey never looks anything less than awesome. He is portrayed as a hero for the common man throughout, he gets the best lines, he has the most fun. Everyone who opposes him is a jerk. If they were going for irony, they didn't communicate it very well. |
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turrell 
"Ohhhh Ohhhh Ohhhh Ohhhh "
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Posted - 04/10/2007 : 15:27:19
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| Well its told through his egotistical perspective, so through his angst-ridden lens, the others would be all jerks. |
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BaftaBaby 
"Always entranced by cinema."
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Posted - 04/10/2007 : 16:29:55
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quote:
Originally posted by turrell
Well its told through his egotistical perspective, so through his angst-ridden lens, the others would be all jerks.
Sorry to be late getting back here -- have returned from a Blades of Glory screening [NOT a great film. Not even a good film. But funny -- you betcha! Okay, not all the way, but some wonderful lines. Really.]
Anyhoo -
Yeah, a combo of what Mr BI and Turrell each said in their latest posts up there. Can't go into too much detail 'cause I'm already late with some work, but I was getting the impression that some of you had missed the deliberate irony of AB. Even the title is full of it. And, yes, lots of the movie itself is 'full of it' and not everything works. But it's attempting something interesting, imo, and that scores points with me. The opening evocation of Sunset Blvd was something I could hold on to throughout many of the scenes. I kept thinking the first time I saw it that it would have kicked more ass directed by -- oh, say David Lynch. I think it was Tori was implying that there ain't many people to like in this film. Which is spot on. AGain, I think that was deliberate, but - yeah, it might have been a more potent, cogent contrast to have had some point of identification.
Crikey - got Shooter coming up on Thursday. Don't suppose there'll be too many people to love in that, either!
Oh, btw -- the new Pirates of the Cab trailer presages some amazing sfx. Can't wait!
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MM0rkeleb 
"Better than HBO."
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Posted - 04/12/2007 : 17:18:38
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My own response to this film is pretty complicated and confused. I still love it, even though in retrospect it does come off as a little smug. But there's one thing that bugs me ...
You see, I saw this with my mom when it came out, and she hated it. Her biggest criticism was that people were heralding it as a great satire of suburban life, when as far as we could tell, it bore no resemblance to suburban life at all. We've lived in the suburbs of Chicago for most of my life, and we don't know anybody at all like the characters in this film. The break is so big that it makes me wonder if the makers of this film (or any other film involving suburbia) actually have any idea what suburbia is really like.
Perhaps it's a matter of over-exaggeration. Sure, exaggeration is needed for satire, but American Beuaty pushes it too far. Yes, suburbanites can be too concerned with appearances, but this will not manifest itself in them freaking out over messing up a $4,000 dollar sofa. In fact, they won't own a $4,000 dollar sofa, not unless they live in a rich suburb like Lake Forest or something. On the other hand, they will insist that their son mow that little strip of land behind their property that doesn't belong to them, because the long grass makes their property look bad. You see, it's little things like that that separate truth from fiction.
However, it doesn't bug me too much partially because it is (drumroll) fiction. So I can watch it and not take it as a commentary on suburbia, because I know better.
Although it has occurred to me that maybe the film is not as bad as my mother and I would think. Because while we live in suburbia, we and most of the people we know out there are Catholic, which gives us a strong sense of family. And it's family (as American Beauty does suggest in its final scene) that saves one from ennui.
So in short ...  |
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Beanmimo
"August review site"
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Posted - 04/13/2007 : 16:47:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Tori
quote:
Not neccesarily true, a man can love his wife and children and go and have a meaningless sexual encounter which means absolutely nothing to him but everything to his wife whose emotions are tied to her sexuality where his emotions are hardly on speaking terms with his sexuality.
A man who truly loves his wife will not have an encounter like that and think it's okay. If he doesn't feel bad or thinks he is justified then he didn't love his wife. If he feels like a jerk afterwards and never does it again, that means he loves his wife. Though ideally if he loves his wife it will never happen in the first place.
Sorry Tori i didn't see this until today!!
I have to partly disagree with you on this. A man who loves his wife and kids can have an affair, maybe he'll feel a bit bad but if he is not found out he will live happily till his end of days in the knowlege that he loves his family and it did no harm.
If he is found out he will do everything to stay with his family as it doesn't mean as much to him as the betrayal does to her.
I'm not saying every family man is like this but if you consider the male vs female attitude to pornography as a metaphorically argumentitave allusion to this situation i think you may see I have a point.
(I am single and have many many married friends and sometimes I borrow their children and/or pets) |
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turrell
"Ohhhh Ohhhh Ohhhh Ohhhh "
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Posted - 04/14/2007 : 00:52:50
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quote:
Originally posted by M0rkeleb
... We've lived in the suburbs of Chicago for most of my life, and we don't know anybody at all like the characters in this film...
... Because while we live in suburbia, we and most of the people we know out there are Catholic, which gives us a strong sense of family...
Which suburb did you grow up in? I am guessing DuPage County? |
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Tori 
"I don't get it...."
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Posted - 04/14/2007 : 18:39:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Beanmimo
quote:
Originally posted by Tori
quote:
Not neccesarily true, a man can love his wife and children and go and have a meaningless sexual encounter which means absolutely nothing to him but everything to his wife whose emotions are tied to her sexuality where his emotions are hardly on speaking terms with his sexuality.
A man who truly loves his wife will not have an encounter like that and think it's okay. If he doesn't feel bad or thinks he is justified then he didn't love his wife. If he feels like a jerk afterwards and never does it again, that means he loves his wife. Though ideally if he loves his wife it will never happen in the first place.
Sorry Tori i didn't see this until today!!
I have to partly disagree with you on this. A man who loves his wife and kids can have an affair, maybe he'll feel a bit bad but if he is not found out he will live happily till his end of days in the knowlege that he loves his family and it did no harm.
If he is found out he will do everything to stay with his family as it doesn't mean as much to him as the betrayal does to her.
I'm not saying every family man is like this but if you consider the male vs female attitude to pornography as a metaphorically argumentitave allusion to this situation i think you may see I have a point.
(I am single and have many many married friends and sometimes I borrow their children and/or pets)
I guess my experience is limited and is coloring my perspective. I have a husband who if he had an affair wouldn't feel a 'bit bad'. He'd probably be suicidal. As for pornography he sees it as nothing beneficial but something dangerous. Why look elsewhere when he already has what he needs? Going beyond me is ridiculous to him and to me and therefore would be dangerous to us. When you have everything, don't try for more.
I just can't see that a man who truly loves his wife would be fine with sleeping with someone else, even if it is once. I'm not saying that he should feel the way a woman feels, that is not the way we are made. Of course he will have a different perspective but I would think that a man who loves his wife would feel badly for breaking trust. Marriages are a contract with the idea that it will be monogamous unless something else is agreed upon by both parties. Therefore, going outside of the marriage for sex is breaking the contract, therefore breaking trust in the relationship which deteriorates the trust and the marriage. Trust is a necessity in this kind of relationship. So it isn't even about sex, it's about trust. So regardless of the views women and men hold about sex, trust is something that was agreed upon in the beginning. Even if she never finds out, you have broken the trust and you have done something wrong. That is something to feel badly about.
If you had a colleague who had become a sort of friend who embezzled $10,000 from a multi-billion dollar company, that's not much. The loss of money won't be too significant. But you would feel betrayed both professionally and personally. It's sort of the same situation. It isn't the money that bothers you but the breach of trust. |
Edited by - Tori on 04/14/2007 18:49:27 |
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duh 
"catpurrs"
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Posted - 04/15/2007 : 15:07:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Tori
Even if she never finds out, you have broken the trust and you have done something wrong. That is something to feel badly about.
Furthermore, the straying spouse has endangered the health/lives of his or her family. STDs are no laughing matter.
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MisterBadIdea
"PLZ GET MILK, KTHXBYE"
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Posted - 04/15/2007 : 16:01:48
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Has anyone here ever been cheated on?
I guarantee you that it is not a small fucking matter. |
Edited by - MisterBadIdea on 04/15/2007 16:03:25 |
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MM0rkeleb
"Better than HBO."
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Posted - 04/15/2007 : 18:13:42
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quote:
Originally posted by turrell
quote:
Originally posted by M0rkeleb
... We've lived in the suburbs of Chicago for most of my life, and we don't know anybody at all like the characters in this film...
... Because while we live in suburbia, we and most of the people we know out there are Catholic, which gives us a strong sense of family...
Which suburb did you grow up in? I am guessing DuPage County?
Nope. Most of my life (except for a short stint in New Jersey where I was born) my family's lived in Lake County. Grayslake and Gurnee, specifically. I did go to high school in DuPage, though. |
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Beanmimo
"August review site"
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Posted - 04/15/2007 : 18:42:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Tori
[quote]Originally posted by Beanmimo
[quote]Originally posted by Tori
[quote]
So regardless of the views women and men hold about sex, trust is something that was agreed upon in the beginning. Even if she never finds out, you have broken the trust and you have done something wrong. That is something to feel badly about.
But that was what I was talking about, men and women hold different views about sex.
I did not say it made it an acceptable practice for either spouse to cheat on the other.
I was just saying that it was more in tune with the male psyche to cheat and think it was ok than the female.
Tori, I was not casting any aspersions on the sanctitiy of your marriage or on anyone other Fwiffer's marriage. Apologies if anyone took it differently.
I shall rest the blame entirely on the shoulders of Lester Burnham (even though he didn't actually cheat he was going to) |
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Tori
"I don't get it...."
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Posted - 04/15/2007 : 19:51:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Beanmimo
quote:
Originally posted by Tori
[quote]Originally posted by Beanmimo
[quote]Originally posted by Tori
[quote]
So regardless of the views women and men hold about sex, trust is something that was agreed upon in the beginning. Even if she never finds out, you have broken the trust and you have done something wrong. That is something to feel badly about.
But that was what I was talking about, men and women hold different views about sex.
I did not say it made it an acceptable practice for either spouse to cheat on the other.
I was just saying that it was more in tune with the male psyche to cheat and think it was ok than the female.
Tori, I was not casting any aspersions on the sanctitiy of your marriage or on anyone other Fwiffer's marriage. Apologies if anyone took it differently.
I shall rest the blame entirely on the shoulders of Lester Burnham (even though he didn't actually cheat he was going to)
You didn't say anything about me at all. I brought me up as an example. :) I agree, Lester is the culprit. I put total blame on him. |
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Beanmimo
"August review site"
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Posted - 04/16/2007 : 11:36:38
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 !! |
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duh
"catpurrs"
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Posted - 04/16/2007 : 16:35:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Tori
You didn't say anything about me at all. I brought me up as an example. :) I agree, Lester is the culprit. I put total blame on him.
Don't forget Mrs. Burnham's torrid affair with The Real Estate King. |
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Beanmimo
"August review site"
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Posted - 04/16/2007 : 17:20:22
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quote:
Originally posted by duh
quote:
Originally posted by Tori
You didn't say anything about me at all. I brought me up as an example. :) I agree, Lester is the culprit. I put total blame on him.
Don't forget Mrs. Burnham's torrid affair with The Real Estate King.
and their untimely visit to the drive in take-away.... |
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Topic |
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Rethinking "American Beauty" (1999)
