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BaftaBaby 
"Always entranced by cinema."
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 Posted - 03/01/2007 : 09:21:47
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Is this a Kane mutiny, or have I missed something? At the start of the film we see the dying tycoon clutching the snow-globe, letting it fall, and mumuring "Rosebud."
BUT
THEN the nurse comes in.
So, FWFR gum-shoes, how does Cotton know what his last word was - which, don't forget, is the catalyst for the whole rest of the film?
It's been ages since I've seen it, but I don't remember anyone else being in the room when the nurse enters. Was there?
TIA
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Whippersnapper. 
"A fourword thinking guy."
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Posted - 03/01/2007 : 09:46:18
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You're not the first one to ask this question!
Kane is (apparently) alone when he speaks his last word. (It wouldn't be impossible for someone to be there unseen in the room, as we only see angles, but there's no reason to assume we are meant to think there is anyone present.)
I don't know how Welles chose to explain this, but its typical of his audacity to carry off a whole masterpiece based on an impossibility. I think we should imagine Orson giving a Harry Lime type smile when asked to explain how anyone knew Kane's last word was "Rosebud".
I think Welles knew he was just a kind of illusionist. Consider his mischievousness in the "War Of The Worlds" radio production, his joy at making America believe aliens had really landed!
All Islamic art must have a deliberate flaw in it, as perfection is the realm of Allah alone. Perhaps Welles had something of the same spirit with "Rosebud"? 
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Edited by - Whippersnapper. on 03/01/2007 10:36:16 |
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Sean 
"Necrosphenisciform anthropophagist."
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Posted - 03/01/2007 : 10:23:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Whippersnapper
...I think we should imagine Orson giving a Larry Lime type smile...
Or would that be Harry? 
Ah, I've got it! You're trying to avoid spoilers!  |
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MisterBadIdea 
"PLZ GET MILK, KTHXBYE"
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Posted - 03/01/2007 : 10:28:14
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| The same way they got King Kong onto a boat off that island -- it's the movies, baby, it doesn't have to make perfect logical sense. |
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Whippersnapper.
"A fourword thinking guy."
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Posted - 03/01/2007 : 10:33:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Se�n
quote:
Originally posted by Whippersnapper
...I think we should imagine Orson giving a Larry Lime type smile...
Or would that be Harry?
Ah, I've got it! You're trying to avoid spoilers!
I must have been thinking of Larry Hime instead.
Or: http://us.imdb.com/name/nm1667698/ |
Edited by - Whippersnapper. on 03/01/2007 10:38:59 |
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ChocolateLady 
"500 Chocolate Delights"
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Posted - 03/01/2007 : 10:54:17
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I was always under the impression that while he said "Rosebud" the last time before he died when he was alone, it wasn't the only time he said it while he was dieing. I'll have to watch the movie again, but I think I recall hearing someone say "why does he keep saying 'Rosebud'...".
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Whippersnapper.
"A fourword thinking guy."
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Posted - 03/01/2007 : 10:58:34
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quote:
Originally posted by MisterBadIdea
The same way they got King Kong onto a boat off that island -- it's the movies, baby, it doesn't have to make perfect logical sense.
KK meets CK!
Well, it would have been pretty hard to come up with a logical explanation for KK, and anyway the film requires much suspension of disbelief, but in CK it would have been a very simple matter to have put the nurse by his bedside to hear his dying word.
Given that Welles and scriptwriter Mankiewicz are two of the most respected figures in the history of film, it's a fair question to ask why they didn't do this. It's hard to believe it was just an oversight.
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Whippersnapper.
"A fourword thinking guy."
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Posted - 03/01/2007 : 11:08:14
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quote:
Originally posted by ChocolateLady
I was always under the impression that while he said "Rosebud" the last time before he died when he was alone, it wasn't the only time he said it while he was dieing. I'll have to watch the movie again, but I think I recall hearing someone say "why does he keep saying 'Rosebud'...".
You must have watched the Yiddishe version.
"Will ya stop it with the Rosebud already?"
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ChocolateLady
"500 Chocolate Delights"
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Posted - 03/01/2007 : 11:47:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Whippersnapper
quote:
Originally posted by ChocolateLady
I was always under the impression that while he said "Rosebud" the last time before he died when he was alone, it wasn't the only time he said it while he was dieing. I'll have to watch the movie again, but I think I recall hearing someone say "why does he keep saying 'Rosebud'...".
You must have watched the Yiddishe version.
"Will ya stop it with the Rosebud already?"
No, no... I remember it now... the quote was:
"Again, with that ferkakte Rosebud chazerai!" |
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BaftaBaby
"Always entranced by cinema."
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Posted - 03/01/2007 : 12:44:47
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quote:
Originally posted by ChocolateLady
quote:
Originally posted by Whippersnapper
quote:
Originally posted by ChocolateLady
I was always under the impression that while he said "Rosebud" the last time before he died when he was alone, it wasn't the only time he said it while he was dieing. I'll have to watch the movie again, but I think I recall hearing someone say "why does he keep saying 'Rosebud'...".
You must have watched the Yiddishe version.
"Will ya stop it with the Rosebud already?"
No, no... I remember it now... the quote was:
"Again, with that ferkakte Rosebud chazerai!"
Rosebud Schmosebud, as long as he loves his mother. 
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Whippersnapper.
"A fourword thinking guy."
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Posted - 03/01/2007 : 13:01:06
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quote:
Originally posted by BaftaBabe
Rosebud Schmosebud, as long as he loves his mother.
Isn't that Oedipus Schmoedipus?
Incidentally, to your first post, it isn't Cotten's character who reveals "Rosebud" to the audience - its raised by the producer of the newsreel in the projection room.
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Whippersnapper.
"A fourword thinking guy."
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Posted - 03/01/2007 : 18:55:07
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OK, here's the latest Kane news.
Although we don't see anyone in the room with Kane at the beginning of the film, near the end the butler says he was in the room when Kane said "Rosebud", dropped the globe which broke and popped his clogs.
The butler also retells when Kane's second wife leaves him, Kane smashes up most of her bedroom and then finds the globe, picks it up and whispers "Rosebud". That's the only other time that Kane said "Rosebud".
Stay tuned. We'll bring you more news as we get it...
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BaftaBaby
"Always entranced by cinema."
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Posted - 03/01/2007 : 19:40:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Whippersnapper
OK, here's the latest Kane news.
Although we don't see anyone in the room with Kane at the beginning of the film, near the end the butler says he was in the room when Kane said "Rosebud", dropped the globe which broke and popped his clogs.
The butler also retells when Kane's second wife leaves him, Kane smashes up most of her bedroom and then finds the globe, picks it up and whispers "Rosebud". That's the only other time that Kane said "Rosebud".
Stay tuned. We'll bring you more news as we get it...
Thaaaaaaaaaaat's Whipper! Finger on the button and first with the 1941 News.
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Shiv
"What a Wonderful World"
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Posted - 03/01/2007 : 23:16:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Whippersnapper
OK, here's the latest Kane news.
Although we don't see anyone in the room with Kane at the beginning of the film, near the end the butler says he was in the room when Kane said "Rosebud", dropped the globe which broke and popped his clogs.
The butler also retells when Kane's second wife leaves him, Kane smashes up most of her bedroom and then finds the globe, picks it up and whispers "Rosebud". That's the only other time that Kane said "Rosebud".
Stay tuned. We'll bring you more news as we get it...
I can't dredge my memory deeply enough, but I'm sure there's one or mabye two more mentions of Rosebud by the people interviewed??? (And of course if you are observant at the beginning of the film you know anyway).
As for whether Welles would construct the film in such a way that we have to suspend disbelief as to how Cotten knows about Rosebud - I don't go for that. Rosebud is a red herring for Cotten. He thinks he is searching for a key to Kane's life or death - but it turns out to be a key to something no-one believed Kane had - emotion. |
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Whippersnapper.
"A fourword thinking guy."
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Posted - 03/02/2007 : 02:13:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Shiv
[quote]
I can't dredge my memory deeply enough, but I'm sure there's one or mabye two more mentions of Rosebud by the people interviewed??? (And of course if you are observant at the beginning of the film you know anyway).
As for whether Welles would construct the film in such a way that we have to suspend disbelief as to how Cotten knows about Rosebud - I don't go for that. Rosebud is a red herring for Cotten. He thinks he is searching for a key to Kane's life or death - but it turns out to be a key to something no-one believed Kane had - emotion.
1. Cotten is not searching for anything. It is the journalist, Thompson, played by William Alland, who is looking for the meaning of Rosebud. Joseph Cotten plays Jedediah Leiland, Kane's ex-friend and ex-employee, now languishing in a hospital for the aged and badly in need of cigars.
2. Thompson asks everyone about Rosebud, but only Raymond the butler can give any information on it, namely that Kane said it on two separate occasions, but without Raymond knowing what it meant.
3. It is Thompson's boss who introduces us to Rosebud being Kane's dying words. There is no explanation at that time as to how anyone knew his dying words when there appeared to be no-one present when he died. However, the shots of Kane dying did not include the whole room, and near the end of the film Raymond the butler says he was there when Kane said "Rosebud", dropped the globe and died.
End of.
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Shiv
"What a Wonderful World"
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Posted - 03/02/2007 : 10:45:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Whippersnapper
1. Cotten is not searching for anything. It is the journalist, Thompson, played by William Alland, who is looking for the meaning of Rosebud. Joseph Cotten plays Jedediah Leiland, Kane's ex-friend and ex-employee, now languishing in a hospital for the aged and badly in need of cigars.
Apolgies I wrote my email quickly before work and repeated Cotten from another email. Sorry for not being an expert on film |
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Question of Kane - not really spoiling
