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Demisemicenturian 
"Four ever European"
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 Posted - 03/26/2007 : 18:59:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Downtown
How long can you remember?
Over twenty years.
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When I was a kid, it was perfectly natural for people to casually use the words "dwarf" or "midget," and I'm only 30 years old so it wasn't that long ago. Perhaps the Little People of America had already decided at that point that those terms were considered undesireable and they were going to start educating the general public about that, but considering I had no idea you're supposed to say "little person" until I heard it on Seinfeld, I'd say the word hadn't really gotten around yet.
As far as I can gather (and I have looked into it in the past) only Americans use the term little people and dwarf is preferred by some Americans and most other people. It is only midget that I have always been informed of as being generally unacceptable, so that is the only term I was commenting on.
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That's why I think that call Yukon got was completely out of line and totally unreasonable. You can't compare it to words like "nigger," "kike," "darky,"
I would agree that nigger is much worse, but maybe I would find darkie roughly equivalent, as both that and midget sound ridiculously old-fashioned to me. If darkie is worse, then it's because people consider racism worse than other forms of prejudice. |
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Demisemicenturian
"Four ever European"
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Posted - 03/26/2007 : 19:03:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Downtown
If it said "Niggers of glory," that's just going out of your way to use the word "nigger" without any real reason. There's nothing clever about that whatsoever. When you use the word "Spades," now it's a pun on another movie title, which is a long-standing fwfr practice and it's definitely witty and clever. That still doesn't make it funny - I'm not chuckling at it - but it is clever, and I've always thought wit is far more important than humor.
O.K., there's a pun, but it's not exactly an earth-shattering one (although of course no weaker than many of mine and many others). It is definitely the case that many people on this site consider any old feeble pun a good enough reason to use a derogatory term. |
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Downtown 
"Welcome back, Billy Buck"
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Posted - 03/26/2007 : 21:07:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Salopian
quote:
Originally posted by Downtown
That's why I think that call Yukon got was completely out of line and totally unreasonable. You can't compare it to words like "nigger," "kike," "darky,"
I would agree that nigger is much worse, but maybe I would find darkie roughly equivalent, as both that and midget sound ridiculously old-fashioned to me. If darkie is worse, then it's because people consider racism worse than other forms of prejudice.
It wasn't a statement on the meaning of the word itself. I was saying "darkie" is just as bad as the N word in the sense that everyone knows you're not supposed to use it. There are definitely people that are unaware that "midget" is considered rude, and would probably be more than happy to stop using the word if someone politely informed them. On the other hand, nobody says "darkie" without knowing it's offensive. |
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randall 
"I like to watch."
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Posted - 03/26/2007 : 23:48:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Salopian
blah, blah, ...only Americans use the term little people and dwarf is preferred by some Americans and most other people. It is only midget that I have always been informed of as being generally unacceptable, so that is the only term I was commenting on.
Honey, "dwarf tossing" was not invented by Americans. |
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MguyXXV
"X marks the spot"
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Posted - 03/27/2007 : 00:06:40
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Having reviewed this thread more thoroughly, I realize that Yukon pulled the review. I had more in depth reaction, but I'm satisfied to know that fwffrs continue to be a thoughtful bunch of people.
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Edited by - MguyXXV on 03/27/2007 00:15:31 |
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Sean 
"Necrosphenisciform anthropophagist."
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Posted - 03/27/2007 : 03:15:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Yukon
I've been philosophical about racial slurs after a story I wrote for the newspaper I work it. It contained the phrase "midget." A 'little person' called me up screaming, saying midget to a dwarf is like calling a black person a nigger.
Ultimately the only 'safe' language when referring to a minority is the 'clinical' term. E.g., "Afro-American" is OK as that is what they are in the way that "European Americans" and "Chinese Americans" are what they are. Every other colloquial term for an "Afro-American" that I'm aware of is considered 'offensive' by somebody. Same for homosexuals, is there any noun (I mean noun, not adjective) for homosexuals (other than the word 'homosexual') that's not considered somewhat 'offensive' by somebody?
So 'midget' and 'dwarf' are offensive, and I've commonly heard a bunch of young kids affectionately referred to as 'little people', so that's ambiguous. Perhaps I'll refer to dwarfs as 'achondroplastics', although there always the risk of upsetting the spondyloepiphyseal congenital dysplastics.
I'd guess subliminally some members of minorities simply don't like to be referred to at all as a member of that minority, so all informal terms are 'offensive' in their eyes. The clinical term is presumably all that's left as it's hard to consider it 'loaded'.
Challenge 
Come up with global unambiguous English-language terms for minorities that ALL members of those minorites will be happy with, specifically,
a) Persons with 'black' skin (to distinguish them from those with 'white' or 'yellow' skin etc),
b) Homosexuals (yep, I know that's an OK term, are there any others?)
c) Dwarfs
d) Persons whose IQ is below 80 (that's about 10% of the population)
etc. I'm not suggesting there aren't any, but I can't think of any. |
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Whippersnapper. 
"A fourword thinking guy."
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Posted - 03/27/2007 : 03:57:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Randall
quote:
Originally posted by Salopian
blah, blah, ...only Americans use the term little people and dwarf is preferred by some Americans and most other people. It is only midget that I have always been informed of as being generally unacceptable, so that is the only term I was commenting on.
Honey, "dwarf tossing" was not invented by Americans.
I think there is the potential for a joke to be made at this point, but I'm not going to lower myself... 
(which is exactly what Snow White said.) 
Damn! I did it!  |
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roger_thornhill 
"'scuse me while I disappear..."
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Posted - 03/27/2007 : 05:00:53
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quote:
Originally posted by MisterBadIdea
Speaking as a non-white person:
1) Yes, "spade" is a derogatory term for black people
2) But who gives a shit?
But, on second thought, you are effectively submitting an FWFR that says, basically, "Niggers of Glory." Ask yourself: Is it really that funny?
I give a shit whether or not this site endorses this kind of language. For the record.
And I am not myself black. But I don't think whether or not one is white or black or whatever is in any way relevant to whether one finds this term offensive.
I am also not gay but would object to the word "faggot."
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MisterBadIdea 
"PLZ GET MILK, KTHXBYE"
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Posted - 03/27/2007 : 05:11:01
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I'm of indeterminate Oriental heritage and I say, toss around whatever racist terms you like. I truly do not care. I can't remember ever hearing a racial slur and being offended, and yes, I have had racial slurs thrown at me (not jokingly either).
That said, I also don't believe that words should be used carelessly, as I believe it would have been in the proposed review. I think people have to be aware that words like that are highly loaded; I think that fact can be used fruitfully, but the joke doesn't work if you don't realize that people do get offended by it. To sum up: Words don't bother me, bad comedy does. |
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rabid kazook 
"Pushing the antelope"
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Posted - 03/27/2007 : 05:25:31
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quote:
Originally posted by MisterBadIdea
My thoughts are that Will Ferrell is a very, very hit-and-miss comedian. When he is on (in things like Anchorman, Talladega Nights, the otherwise uninteresting Old School, and the weirdly sweet Stranger Than Fiction), he is just note-perfect. When he is off (Wedding Crashers, Elf, the otherwise funny Zoolander, or God-help-us Bewitched), there is no one worse in the universe.
Ferrell and McKay wrote those two bestest comedies (Anchorman & Talladega), and I think this are da man's peaks. But I then also liked the goofy Zoolander very much and did find his Mugatu character very much awsome to be and not at all "off" (such an over-the-top character, fit so awesomely). Also I found him tremendous in that sweet Elf (notably Stranger Than Fiction too), so it's more like "off-the-hook", than "off" for me, Mr. B. 
As far the rest of his fimography goes, a whole bunch of it were written by people whose writting I didn't find that good and creative... and then imo he (Ferrell) makes for the best in those drooly movies like Old School, those two bestest minutes in the horrably written Crashers, in Bewitched, that kids soccer movie....
Ofcourse every comedian rebundles with "hit-and-miss" situations. And not just comedians, also every filmmaker, every musician, every woman driver... , so I don't think there's much in that... but I could understand people not liking his deadpan type of humor, but that's some other thing... I mean I don't like Benny Hill. 
quote:
Originally posted by MisterBadIdea
Blades of Glory looks so bad. So very, very bad. The presence of Napoleon Dynamite (now there's some overrated comedy) is also not a good sign.
Again we part in tastes B, I think it's a big comedy gem (that Dynamite the movie) with rarely empty spots without a good joke, punting with perfect childish humor and with cool offbeat cast. Imo it's a rare breed among 2000+ comedies, where I can name less that 6 or 7 good ones... 
With that said I don't know how it's Blades gonna end up, I don't think particulary good, but we'll see what do these writesters (I've first heard off) have in their sleeves. |
Edited by - rabid kazook on 03/27/2007 05:31:05 |
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MisterBadIdea
"PLZ GET MILK, KTHXBYE"
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Posted - 03/27/2007 : 06:33:02
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| My hatred of Napoleon Dynamite is boundless. The definition of a one-note movie, it made me laugh twice, I think, within its running time. Yet another movie that mistakes quirk for comedy. But unlike many an undistinguished indie film, Napoleon Dynamite especially pissed me off because it's 90 minutes of kicking the nerd and laughing at him. When I did laugh, I felt like an asshole. |
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Demisemicenturian
"Four ever European"
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Posted - 03/27/2007 : 09:21:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Downtown
It wasn't a statement on the meaning of the word itself. I was saying "darkie" is just as bad as the N word in the sense that everyone knows you're not supposed to use it. There are definitely people that are unaware that "midget" is considered rude, and would probably be more than happy to stop using the word if someone politely informed them. On the other hand, nobody says "darkie" without knowing it's offensive.
I'm not sure that people knowing a term shouldn't be used is the main definition of how bad it is. For example, everyone knows that it is bad to call someone a bastard, but this does not make it as bad as the words above. Plus I don't actually think that everyone does know not to use darkie, hence the grandmother mentioned above. But in that case and in the case of midget, that's just those people's fault, A.F.A.I.C. People are responsibility for eradicating their own ignorance. |
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Demisemicenturian
"Four ever European"
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Posted - 03/27/2007 : 09:22:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Randall
Honey, "dwarf tossing" was not invented by Americans.
Er, what has that got to do with the price of fish?  |
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BaftaBaby
"Always entranced by cinema."
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Posted - 03/27/2007 : 09:25:54
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I've always suspected that people are likely to reveal their true prejudices if, when they use language which may offend someone and they are informed of that fact, their reply is to accuse those offended as being too sensitive, or in some other way seek to justify their perfectly 'innocent' remarks. OTOH, if they seem genuinely unaware of the unintended consequences and, as Sal implies, seek to modify their behavior, those people deserve our support.
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Demisemicenturian
"Four ever European"
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Posted - 03/27/2007 : 10:28:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Se�n
Ultimately the only 'safe' language when referring to a minority is the 'clinical' term. E.g., "Afro-American" is OK as that is what they are in the way that "European Americans" and "Chinese Americans" are what they are.
I'm not so sure about this. Firstly, I wouldn't call these terms clinical, especially as they tend to be constructed from parts of people's ancestry that people choose to focus on. Secondly, the term in use is African American, not Afro-American. Thirdly, I personally do not like those sort of terms, as it is divisive/problematic to be nationality-specific. For example, as we found in the other thread, Americans often accidentally call other black people African Americans!
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Every other colloquial term for an "Afro-American" that I'm aware of is considered 'offensive' by somebody.
I don't agree that black is colloquial. Colloquial is not the same as non-clinical. I have also never heard anyone objecting to it (as an adjective), but the rise of African American suggests that some may do. I would appreciate hearing about it if anyone knows more about that.
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Same for homosexuals, is there any noun (I mean noun, not adjective) for homosexuals (other than the word 'homosexual') that's not considered somewhat 'offensive' by somebody?
As I've said before, I don't like gay as a noun (on the same basis as black or white), but this objection comes far down the list. Why is it that you have this noun fixation, though? What is wrong with just using gay man? You have got lesbian as a noun, anyway. When it comes to disabled people, you surely don't think that any (general) noun is acceptable, so why should there be for all other types of people?
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So 'midget' and 'dwarf' are offensive, and I've commonly heard a bunch of young kids affectionately referred to as 'little people', so that's ambiguous. Perhaps I'll refer to dwarfs as 'achondroplastics', although there always the risk of upsetting the spondyloepiphyseal congenital dysplastics.
I'd happily use dwarf in most contexts, though maybe I'd be a bit warier with Americans. There was a programme about American primordial dwarfs recently, and even they used dwarf quite standardly. I am really pretty certain that if I had restricted growth, I would object to being called a little person, whatever my nationality.
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I'd guess subliminally some members of minorities simply don't like to be referred to at all as a member of that minority, so all informal terms are 'offensive' in their eyes.
This may be true (though I think it would include very few people), but I don't think it is anything to do with why certain terms are derogatory. I wouldn't call these terms even 'informal', though, any more than polar bear is, as that suggests somehow not proper - they're just ordinary.
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a) Persons with 'black' skin (to distinguish them from those with 'white' or 'yellow' skin etc),
black people
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b) Homosexuals (yep, I know that's an OK term, are there any others?)
gay people (gay men/lesbians)
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c) Dwarfs
dwarfs
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d) Persons whose IQ is below 80 (that's about 10% of the population)
people with learning difficulties/disabilities |
Edited by - Demisemicenturian on 03/27/2007 10:31:08 |
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Calling a spade a spade
