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Stalean 
"Back...OMG"
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 Posted - 09/11/2007 : 21:52:34
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quote:
Originally posted by ragingfluff
Far be it from me to defend Mini Me Tom Cruise, but I think criticizing him for "not being a team player" is a bit silly. He is a movie star who gets to pick and choose what he does, and if he chooses star vehicles (and yes, that sometimes includes taking beloved TV series and reworking them to focus on one character, namely, his), that's his decision. As Demonic points out, it's his name that gets bums on seats, and he does what he does (running while exhaling loudly; looking confused; flashing his killer smile; staring into middle distance while looking thoughtful; standing on orange crates to appear taller than his co-stars) very well indeed.
In any event, the relatively poor (by Hollywood standards) performance by MI3 at the box office, coupled with Tattoo's Cruise's couch-jumping resulted in Paramount throwing him off the lot and ensuring there will be no MI4, or if there is, it won't star Mickey Rooney Tom Cruise.
And besides, who gives a %$#@ about Peter Graves? He was already a has-been in the 1970's whose only memorable performance post Mission Impossible was in Airplane. Graves was unhappy with the Mission Impossible movie (because he wanted to be in it...I'm guessing because he needed the money)...just like Adam West bitched when they passed him over in favour of Michael Keaton for the big screen Batman. Cruise may be an arrogant %^$!, but he's an arroagant %^$! who can open a movie, and if you don't know by now that that is all that counts in Hollywood, you're naive.
Most movie versions of TV series tend to destroy a little of the original. The first Star Trek movie was utter garbage. The Avengers: piece of stinking pooh. Thunderbirds: blech! Lost in Space: like the script, I assume. There are exceptions (The Fugitive), but they are few and far between. We all have beloved TV shows from our youth that we would hate to see destroyed in the cinema (hands off The Prisoner!), but that is sometimes the way it is....
"Far be it from me" to get on your bad side, ragingfluff, or be "silly" AND "naive." You, obviously, let everything rage out of your brain when you saw "team/ensemble player." The point I was trying to make was that you can still be a BIG STAR in your own right without rejecting ensemble acting, but Tom Cruise has chosen the singular route. If he and you think that brings in more bucks, then more power to you. If my observations are so repugnant to your sensibilites--DON'T READ OR REPLY TO THEM!!!  Someone always has to attack people for participating in the conversation on this site. What sad, pathetic people you are. You think the anonymity of the internet gives you the right to say any rude, disagreeable thing you want. WELL, IT DOESN'T.  |
Edited by - Stalean on 09/12/2007 00:59:51 |
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randall 
"I like to watch."
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Posted - 09/12/2007 : 00:48:25
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OK, as a HUGE M:I fan [the TV series, not the movies--who cares about them?], I'll suggest that all they had to do was to make DAN BRIGGS the traitor. He's the first-season guy that Jim Phelps took over for. Invent some backstory for him! Stupidos!
P.S.: I love M:I, I love the phony accents, everything. I love to watch the con. I'd like to believe that somebody like Ricky Jay was viewing this stuff while I was, but maybe it was too sanitized for him. |
Edited by - randall on 09/12/2007 00:53:31 |
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demonic 
"Cinemaniac"
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Posted - 09/12/2007 : 00:49:55
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I thought that Ragingfluff was writing with an obvious humour in mind, so I don't think you need to take that much offence Stalean. You point out it would be better not to read your posts if they cause offence, which is strange argument when writing on a public forum, but the same equally applies in reverse - if you don't like Ragingfluff's opinion, even his opinion on what you just wrote, it's just as valid as your post. I have to say you seem to be the one doing more of the attacking from the tone of your last post. What's all that "sad, pathetic" business?
I do have a question for you about your concept of the "ensemble actor". I'm not sure how you drew up your list of actors but I'd question it. You think George Clooney, Brad Pitt and Matt Damon are team players because they did the Ocean movies and shared the spotlight? Not really. Damon's not a ensemble actor in the Bourne Trilogy or anything much since he made it big, or Clooney except for when he's directing and has enough on his plate as it is. You include Julia Roberts, Andy Garcia and Catherine Zeta Jones but none of them are big enough to actually sell a movie individually. Roberts star has definitely faded since the Oscar win. Zeta Jones just isn't any good. And Russell Crowe? How is he not top billing in every major movie he's done since he made the big time?
For what it's worth I think Magnolia is an ensemble movie in the truest sense of the word, unlike the Ocean movies, and no one in the main cast has much more screen time than anyone else. If you think Cruise was the "lead" that must be because he was one of the very best things in it, amongst a cast of superb actors.
A final question - what makes you think the ensemble style of film-making is better than the star system? Because you prefer ensemble films presumably - but that doesn't make them better, just what you prefer. When De Niro and Pacino were still making films worth seeing you can guarantee that was the star system in full force - they commited to a project and it got greenlit, and people went to see it for the sole reason they were in it. Nicholson and Cruise are still doing it. |
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Stalean
"Back...OMG"
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Posted - 09/12/2007 : 02:59:00
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It, obviously, is not "obvious" to me, demonic. I don't go around calling someone "silly" or implying they are "naive" when they are expressing their opinion. You turned my whole post around to suit your convenience. I try to be harmonious and respect other people's right to express their opinion (when they aren't being outright disrespectful to other members), and I expect the same courtesy. People seem to think they can continue writing rude remarks without being called out about it. A wise person once said, "There are three sides to any argument: your side, my side and the right side." Who's going to decide the right side--not you nor I.
Determining how "big" is someone's star is a matter of individual interpretation. Not once in my post did I say that the "ensemble-style" was better than the "star system." I was merely trying to add to the conversation by pointing out that out of many, many stars doing ensemble work, Tom Cruise has done less. I'm not going to tell you (as I have been told) that you are wrong (except that your assumption ensemble-films are my favaorite genre), only offer the information you have requested. And, as far as I'm concerned Tom Cruise is NOT the draw that takes me to see his films--I don't have that kind of prejudice--I just like all films.
Julia Roberts (Who has headlined all of 17+ films)
-Steel Magnolias
-Flatliners
-Hook
-Everyone Says I Love You
-Ocean's Eleven
-Ocean's Twelve
-Mona Lisa Smile
Catherine Zeta-Jones
-Chicago
-Traffic
-Ocean's Twelve
-High Fidelity
-Titanic (TV version)
Russell Crowe
-L.A. Confidential
-The Quick and the Dead
-Master and Commander: The Far Side of the World (considered a string ensemble)
Andy Garcia
-The Godfather: Part III
-The Untouchables
-Things to Do in Denver When You're Dead
-Ocean's Eleven, Twelve, and Thirteen
-Smokin' Aces
George Clooney
-The Thin Red Line
-Ocean's Eleven, Twelve, and Thirteen
-Syriana
Some that are on the edge of ensemble:
-From Dusk Till Dawn
-O Brother, Where Art Thou?
-Good Night, Good Luck
Brad Pitt
-Babel
-Ocean's Eleven, Twelve, and Thirteen
-Sleepers
-Snatch
-Troy
Matt Damon
-Ocean's Eleven, Twelve, and Thirteen
-Saving Private Ryan
-Rounders
-Dogma
-Syriana
-The Departed
I hope this post isn't misconstrued as my other posts have been.
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ChocolateLady
"500 Chocolate Delights"
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Posted - 09/12/2007 : 08:12:42
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I'm with StaLean on this one. I think participating in ensamble work is the sign of an actor who cares more about their art and the product they produce, than they do about their stardom (and bank balance). Cruise has never done anything but promote himself, while bigger (and far better) actors have taken smaller parts, worked with other big names and stretched themselves with independent films and projects we might never hear of. Those actors have artistic integrity, and I'm sorry, but from everything I have seen and can see of what he's doing lately, Cruise doesn't.
Yes, he did have some at one time - back in the days of Born on the 4th of July and Rain Man, but somewhere along the line something inside him switched and he stopped being that kind of actor. For this reason, I admit I'm now prejudiced against him. But right now, that prejudice is pretty well justified. I'm willing to let him prove me wrong. But I'm not willing to have it be with M:I since - as StaLean says - if you're going to change a beloved TV series to be nearly unrecognizable, then why bother using the name?
I have lots of prejudices against actors and refuse to see their movies. While most are genre related, there are some that are personality related as well. Cruise is now one, DiCaprio was one until I saw The Aviator, and after I saw that, I may never want to see another movie with Cate Blanchett, since she portrayed Katharine Hepburn totally wrong - but that might be the writer's poor script (highly probable) and/or bad direction (less likely).
There are a few others, but you should know that while Cruise and the rest of the actors I dislike may be able to redeem themselves in my eyes (if they start showing artistic intregity), I will never, ever watch another Mel Gibson film - not in a theatre, not on a rented (or bought) DVD and not even on television.
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Sean
"Necrosphenisciform anthropophagist."
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Posted - 09/12/2007 : 09:17:44
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quote:
Originally posted by ChocolateLady
I have lots of prejudices against actors and refuse to see their movies. While most are genre related, there are some that are personality related as well. Cruise is now one, DiCaprio was one until I saw The Aviator
Wow! I liked DiCaprio in What's Eating Gilbert Grape and I thought he's been a waste of space ever since, particularly in The Aviator. 
Each to their own.  |
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ragingfluff 
"Currently lost in Canada"
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Posted - 09/12/2007 : 17:03:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Stalean
quote:
Originally posted by ragingfluff
Far be it from me to defend Mini Me Tom Cruise, but I think criticizing him for "not being a team player" is a bit silly. He is a movie star who gets to pick and choose what he does, and if he chooses star vehicles (and yes, that sometimes includes taking beloved TV series and reworking them to focus on one character, namely, his), that's his decision. As Demonic points out, it's his name that gets bums on seats, and he does what he does (running while exhaling loudly; looking confused; flashing his killer smile; staring into middle distance while looking thoughtful; standing on orange crates to appear taller than his co-stars) very well indeed.
In any event, the relatively poor (by Hollywood standards) performance by MI3 at the box office, coupled with Tattoo's Cruise's couch-jumping resulted in Paramount throwing him off the lot and ensuring there will be no MI4, or if there is, it won't star Mickey Rooney Tom Cruise.
And besides, who gives a %$#@ about Peter Graves? He was already a has-been in the 1970's whose only memorable performance post Mission Impossible was in Airplane. Graves was unhappy with the Mission Impossible movie (because he wanted to be in it...I'm guessing because he needed the money)...just like Adam West bitched when they passed him over in favour of Michael Keaton for the big screen Batman. Cruise may be an arrogant %^$!, but he's an arroagant %^$! who can open a movie, and if you don't know by now that that is all that counts in Hollywood, you're naive.
Most movie versions of TV series tend to destroy a little of the original. The first Star Trek movie was utter garbage. The Avengers: piece of stinking pooh. Thunderbirds: blech! Lost in Space: like the script, I assume. There are exceptions (The Fugitive), but they are few and far between. We all have beloved TV shows from our youth that we would hate to see destroyed in the cinema (hands off The Prisoner!), but that is sometimes the way it is....
"Far be it from me" to get on your bad side, ragingfluff, or be "silly" AND "naive." You, obviously, let everything rage out of your brain when you saw "team/ensemble player." The point I was trying to make was that you can still be a BIG STAR in your own right without rejecting ensemble acting, but Tom Cruise has chosen the singular route. If he and you think that brings in more bucks, then more power to you. If my observations are so repugnant to your sensibilites--DON'T READ OR REPLY TO THEM!!! Someone always has to attack people for participating in the conversation on this site. What sad, pathetic people you are. You think the anonymity of the internet gives you the right to say any rude, disagreeable thing you want. WELL, IT DOESN'T.
WTF?
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demonic
"Cinemaniac"
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Posted - 09/13/2007 : 04:39:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Stalean
It, obviously, is not "obvious" to me, demonic. I don't go around calling someone "silly" or implying they are "naive" when they are expressing their opinion. You turned my whole post around to suit your convenience. I try to be harmonious and respect other people's right to express their opinion (when they aren't being outright disrespectful to other members), and I expect the same courtesy. People seem to think they can continue writing rude remarks without being called out about it. A wise person once said, "There are three sides to any argument: your side, my side and the right side." Who's going to decide the right side--not you nor I.
Determining how "big" is someone's star is a matter of individual interpretation. Not once in my post did I say that the "ensemble-style" was better than the "star system." I was merely trying to add to the conversation by pointing out that out of many, many stars doing ensemble work, Tom Cruise has done less. I'm not going to tell you (as I have been told) that you are wrong (except that your assumption ensemble-films are my favaorite genre), only offer the information you have requested. And, as far as I'm concerned Tom Cruise is NOT the draw that takes me to see his films--I don't have that kind of prejudice--I just like all films.
Julia Roberts (Who has headlined all of 17+ films)
-Steel Magnolias
-Flatliners
-Hook
-Everyone Says I Love You
-Ocean's Eleven
-Ocean's Twelve
-Mona Lisa Smile
Catherine Zeta-Jones
-Chicago
-Traffic
-Ocean's Twelve
-High Fidelity
-Titanic (TV version)
Russell Crowe
-L.A. Confidential
-The Quick and the Dead
-Master and Commander: The Far Side of the World (considered a string ensemble)
Andy Garcia
-The Godfather: Part III
-The Untouchables
-Things to Do in Denver When You're Dead
-Ocean's Eleven, Twelve, and Thirteen
-Smokin' Aces
George Clooney
-The Thin Red Line
-Ocean's Eleven, Twelve, and Thirteen
-Syriana
Some that are on the edge of ensemble:
-From Dusk Till Dawn
-O Brother, Where Art Thou?
-Good Night, Good Luck
Brad Pitt
-Babel
-Ocean's Eleven, Twelve, and Thirteen
-Sleepers
-Snatch
-Troy
Matt Damon
-Ocean's Eleven, Twelve, and Thirteen
-Saving Private Ryan
-Rounders
-Dogma
-Syriana
-The Departed
I hope this post isn't misconstrued as my other posts have been.
Maybe it's just something that can be misconstrued in your tone Stalean - it can read as a bit militant and hard edged. I think the biggest problem in most forums where disagreements occur, as they inevitably will, is a sense of reality and a bit of humour.
Anyway - thanks for the detailed work in answering my question...
I think the mark of the "star" (this is nothing to do with acting ability by the way in case anyone is wondering) is on their pure saleability. This is not something I particularly like, but we watch movies for the joy of it, but most movies are made for the cash of it. I repeat that several of the actors you mention are not big enough stars to do anything other than ensemble style work - they couldn't sell a movie to the great unwashed on the back of their name alone and so have to add to the cache of a film en masse. I also repeat the mark of someone interested in ensemble work can only be judged after they are a big enough star. Russell Crowe for example only made it huge after Gladiator - and the only film you mention after that was made was Master and Commander, which I don't particularly remember being an ensemble film. Paul Bettany had a lot to do, but Crowe was the star; after all the poster was a large image of him on his own.
As this concentrates a lot on Cruise I'd like to make the following suggestion... in addition to Magnolia (the best ensemble movie of recent memory) he has the best, but definitely not the biggest, part in Interview with the Vampire which is as much Pitt's film, he shares equal screen time in Rain Man and Collateral with his leading co-stars, even A Few Good Men could be considered a borderline ensemble film. Also Cruise's next film is Lions for Lambs - where he's playing third billing to Meryl Streep and Robert Redford. Isn't that be much the same as Clooney, Damon and Pitt in the Ocean movies - just three better actors? 
We definitely agree to disagree when it comes to Cruise, Choccy. I don't believe he chooses the films he does for the sake of his fame and bank balance - both are pretty much as advanced as you can get I should imagine. He's doing what any actor in his position would do - look for the best projects - star vehicle or ensemble - hence his next movie. Regardless of his ridiculous personal life and appalling PR fuck ups I still think of him as a first rate actor. I hope he does make something soon that you'll be tempted to see - all the films I mention above he gives excellent performances in, and I hope he continues to do so rather than wish him ill. I have a suspicion most people do so because, whether they'd like to admit it or not, they can't stand unqualified success. Hence the curse of the Oscar. |
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Stalean
"Back...OMG"
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Posted - 09/13/2007 : 14:22:27
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quote:
Originally posted by demonic
Maybe it's just something that can be misconstrued in your tone Stalean - it can read as a bit militant and hard edged. I think the biggest problem in most forums where disagreements occur, as they inevitably will, is a sense of reality and a bit of humour.
Reality-
Arguments on the Internet:
"It's like watching a train wreck. The outcome may not be in doubt, but you can't look away."
Humour-
How To Win Any Argument on the Internet
My Reality-
Breaking Rule #1 of the "How To Win Any Argument on the Internet."
Move along people. There is nothing else to look at. |
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ragingfluff
"Currently lost in Canada"
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Posted - 09/13/2007 : 16:00:46
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quote:
Originally posted by ragingfluff
Far be it from me to defend Mini Me Tom Cruise, but I think criticizing him for "not being a team player" is a bit silly unfair to him. He is a movie star who gets to pick and choose what he does, and if he chooses star vehicles (and yes, that sometimes includes taking beloved TV series and reworking them to focus on one character, namely, his), that's his decision. As Demonic points out, it's his name that gets bums on seats, and he does what he does (running while exhaling loudly; looking confused; flashing his killer smile; staring into middle distance while looking thoughtful; standing on orange crates to appear taller than his co-stars) very well indeed.
In any event, the relatively poor (by Hollywood standards) performance by MI3 at the box office, coupled with Tattoo's Cruise's couch-jumping resulted in Paramount throwing him off the lot and ensuring there will be no MI4, or if there is, it won't star Mickey Rooney Tom Cruise.
And besides, who gives a %$#@ about Peter Graves? He was already a has-been in the 1970's whose only memorable performance post Mission Impossible was in Airplane. Graves was unhappy with the Mission Impossible movie (because he wanted to be in it...I'm guessing because he needed the money)...just like Adam West bitched when they passed him over in favour of Michael Keaton for the big screen Batman. Cruise may be an arrogant %^$!, but he's an arroagant %^$! who can open a movie, and if you don't know by now that that is all that counts in Hollywood, you're naive. and that's all that counts.
Most movie versions of TV series tend to destroy a little of the original. The first Star Trek movie was utter garbage. The Avengers: piece of stinking pooh. Thunderbirds: blech! Lost in Space: like the script, I assume. There are exceptions (The Fugitive), but they are few and far between. We all have beloved TV shows from our youth that we would hate to see destroyed in the cinema (hands off The Prisoner!), but that is sometimes the way it is....
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Beanmimo 
"August review site"
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Posted - 09/13/2007 : 16:20:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Stalean
It, obviously, is not "obvious" to me, demonic. I don't go around calling someone "silly" or implying they are "naive" when they are expressing their opinion. You turned my whole post around to suit your convenience. I try to be harmonious and respect other people's right to express their opinion (when they aren't being outright disrespectful to other members), and I expect the same courtesy. People seem to think they can continue writing rude remarks without being called out about it. A wise person once said, "There are three sides to any argument: your side, my side and the right side." Who's going to decide the right side--not you nor I.
Determining how "big" is someone's star is a matter of individual interpretation. Not once in my post did I say that the "ensemble-style" was better than the "star system." I was merely trying to add to the conversation by pointing out that out of many, many stars doing ensemble work, Tom Cruise has done less. I'm not going to tell you (as I have been told) that you are wrong (except that your assumption ensemble-films are my favaorite genre), only offer the information you have requested. And, as far as I'm concerned Tom Cruise is NOT the draw that takes me to see his films--I don't have that kind of prejudice--I just like all films.
Julia Roberts (Who has headlined all of 17+ films)
-Steel Magnolias
-Flatliners
-Hook
-Everyone Says I Love You
-Ocean's Eleven
-Ocean's Twelve
-Mona Lisa Smile
Catherine Zeta-Jones
-Chicago
-Traffic
-Ocean's Twelve
-High Fidelity
-Titanic (TV version)
Russell Crowe
-L.A. Confidential
-The Quick and the Dead
-Master and Commander: The Far Side of the World (considered a string ensemble)
Andy Garcia
-The Godfather: Part III
-The Untouchables
-Things to Do in Denver When You're Dead
-Ocean's Eleven, Twelve, and Thirteen
-Smokin' Aces
George Clooney
-The Thin Red Line
-Ocean's Eleven, Twelve, and Thirteen
-Syriana
Some that are on the edge of ensemble:
-From Dusk Till Dawn
-O Brother, Where Art Thou?
-Good Night, Good Luck
Brad Pitt
-Babel
-Ocean's Eleven, Twelve, and Thirteen
-Sleepers
-Snatch
-Troy
Matt Damon
-Ocean's Eleven, Twelve, and Thirteen
-Saving Private Ryan
-Rounders
-Dogma
-Syriana
-The Departed
I hope this post isn't misconstrued as my other posts have been.
What are you trying to say about my mother?? |
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Stalean
"Back...OMG"
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Posted - 09/13/2007 : 16:52:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Beanmimo
quote:
Originally posted by Stalean
It, obviously, is not "obvious" to me, demonic. I don't go around calling someone "silly" or implying they are "naive" when they are expressing their opinion. You turned my whole post around to suit your convenience. I try to be harmonious and respect other people's right to express their opinion (when they aren't being outright disrespectful to other members), and I expect the same courtesy. People seem to think they can continue writing rude remarks without being called out about it. A wise person once said, "There are three sides to any argument: your side, my side and the right side." Who's going to decide the right side--not you nor I.
Determining how "big" is someone's star is a matter of individual interpretation. Not once in my post did I say that the "ensemble-style" was better than the "star system." I was merely trying to add to the conversation by pointing out that out of many, many stars doing ensemble work, Tom Cruise has done less. I'm not going to tell you (as I have been told) that you are wrong (except that your assumption ensemble-films are my favaorite genre), only offer the information you have requested. And, as far as I'm concerned Tom Cruise is NOT the draw that takes me to see his films--I don't have that kind of prejudice--I just like all films.
Julia Roberts (Who has headlined all of 17+ films)
-Steel Magnolias
-Flatliners
-Hook
-Everyone Says I Love You
-Ocean's Eleven
-Ocean's Twelve
-Mona Lisa Smile
Catherine Zeta-Jones
-Chicago
-Traffic
-Ocean's Twelve
-High Fidelity
-Titanic (TV version)
Russell Crowe
-L.A. Confidential
-The Quick and the Dead
-Master and Commander: The Far Side of the World (considered a string ensemble)
Andy Garcia
-The Godfather: Part III
-The Untouchables
-Things to Do in Denver When You're Dead
-Ocean's Eleven, Twelve, and Thirteen
-Smokin' Aces
George Clooney
-The Thin Red Line
-Ocean's Eleven, Twelve, and Thirteen
-Syriana
Some that are on the edge of ensemble:
-From Dusk Till Dawn
-O Brother, Where Art Thou?
-Good Night, Good Luck
Brad Pitt
-Babel
-Ocean's Eleven, Twelve, and Thirteen
-Sleepers
-Snatch
-Troy
Matt Damon
-Ocean's Eleven, Twelve, and Thirteen
-Saving Private Ryan
-Rounders
-Dogma
-Syriana
-The Departed
I hope this post isn't misconstrued as my other posts have been.
What are you trying to say about my mother??
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ChocolateLady
"500 Chocolate Delights"
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Posted - 09/14/2007 : 10:37:14
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quote:
Originally posted by demonic
We definitely agree to disagree when it comes to Cruise, Choccy.
Yes, I do believe we will. Friends? |
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demonic
"Cinemaniac"
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Posted - 09/14/2007 : 17:57:11
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quote:
Originally posted by ChocolateLady
quote:
Originally posted by demonic
We definitely agree to disagree when it comes to Cruise, Choccy.
Yes, I do believe we will. Friends?
Yes, of course! As if there was any lack of friendship implied...
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Jim Phelps
