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randall 
"I like to watch."
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 Posted - 03/09/2008 : 20:06:17
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Well acted and directed.
I thought as we cut out, that he was thinking of kidnapping her again. My wife said, NO WAY! Whatever, one hell of a movie. |
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w22dheartlivie 
"Kitty Lover"
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Posted - 03/09/2008 : 22:56:19
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| It never occurred to me to think he was considering abducting her, although I do think he was wondering if he made the right choice. As I said, he made the commitment to honor his decision, which meant he would have to be that child's guardian angel. The ending left a taste of hopelessness. Sadly, that is the life of too many children. |
Edited by - w22dheartlivie on 03/09/2008 22:58:32 |
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silly 
"That rabbit's DYNAMITE."
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Posted - 03/10/2008 : 17:59:18
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| I agree, he had a bit of "what have I done?" in his eyes. That happens a lot, too. I didn't think he would act on it, however, epecially since they made it clear earlier in the film that he was reluctant to get involved in the first place, but the found himself drawn in. |
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Demisemicenturian
"Four ever European"
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Posted - 06/08/2008 : 23:06:25
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Gone Baby Gone
By far first and foremost, wildheartlivie, I am so sorry to hear about your friend's, and your own, loss. The loss of a child, with either a known or unknown outcome, must be the hardest thing possible in life.
In terms of the film, not that it matters at all, I felt that it let itself down extremely badly. There is absolutely no proper evidence that Cheese has Amanda: they don't even get the mother to confirm that it's not just any old blanket. While this doesn't turn out to be the (whole) situation, Affleck's character ought to assume that Cheese is just opportunistically trying to get 'his' money back. Then there is absolutely no evidence that Amanda has fallen in the lake. Do you really think that if a small child were thought to have fallen in a not-that-large lake then they would not drain it or otherwise confirm that she was definitely not in there? They certainly would not issue a death certificate on such flimsy evidence. From that point on, it is obvious that Amanda is alive and has not been kidnapped by Cheese.
A second issue is that, in real life, no one would think there were actually an ethical dilemma here. All normal people would think that Amanda should be with her mother, or taken into care by social services if need be. No one would think it O.K. for a random old couple to just take her. And exactly how are a mixed race old couple going to get away with having a small white child? Would they tell her that she was the woman's granddaughter? Then she'd want to find out about her mother and it would all fall apart as soon as she tried. And why does Beatrice suddenly abandon Amanda? Realistically, she would stick around to look out for her, but that would be inconvenient for the ending so she is cynically cut out.
I really liked the film otherwise, but these faultlines are so major that it comes down to 3/5. |
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BaftaBaby
"Always entranced by cinema."
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Posted - 06/13/2008 : 11:11:49
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Finally got around to this one and am sure it will remain in cine-memory more as a marker on Ben Affleck's journey to being a fine director than any quasi-moral dilemmas thrown up by the script.
Those Affleck bros are certainly talented, though I'll be interested to see how Casey manages to overcome his boyish appearance as the years roll by. It's not as though he's got Michael J Fox's headstart with those decades of tv moppets to fall back on. It won't be every script that will be able to make use of cutesy dialogue about his young appearance. Like Mr BI - I can certainly buy him as capable of action with a gun, but not so much as action in the sack. He just ain't a leading man in a medium where the camera tells no lies. I'm hoping he'll find a fund of character parts - especially those which feature his well-documented sense of humor. Really - some of his pr interviews border on comedy classic.
As to his brother's skill behind the camera, no reviews have gone ott. His pace is great, but so are his choices for framing and, as has been noted above, for letting a held image tell its own story - as in the last shot which is iconic. He's meticulous which is the adjective all good directors know is the most important. Plus we already know from his early days with Matt Damon that he's got the intellect to sustain a career. What's not yet evident is his "personal signature." As in - you can tell a Hitchcock film, or one by Truffaut or Ford et al whether or not you know the director's name. We'll have to see more of Ben to know if he's headed that way.
As to the moral issues - and as Salopian has mentioned - there are too many plot and character anomalies for this to be a serious examination. Though I'm personally glad the issue has at least been addressed at all in a mainstream film.
Historically US police policy has long been suspect when it comes to domestic matters, and legislation is different from the UK - and I daresay other nations. It's also been hampered by conflicts between state and federal law, as well as social policy. It's difficult to "experiment" on children to discover what's best for them, and much legislation has been based on anecdotal tales and knee-jerk pressure.
But the fact is there are many other scenarios that might have unfolded in this film's plot -- and I haven't read the book on which it's based. What it feels like more than anything is that any serious moral analysis has been subserviant to the scene-by-scene evolution of a thriller plot. It's morality painting by numbers.
Which is why Michael Clayton wins this moral war.
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MisterBadIdea 
"PLZ GET MILK, KTHXBYE"
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Posted - 06/17/2008 : 14:39:34
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quote:
Which is why Michael Clayton wins this moral war.
Ha ha, nooooo. Maybe the moral dilemma in Gone Baby Gone doesn't stand up entirely to the harsh light of reality, but if you put that aside, at least it is in fact a moral dilemma. "Fighting the evil corporation who tried to kill you" vs. "not fighting the evil corporation who tried to tried to kill you" doesn't count. |
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Demisemicenturian
"Four ever European"
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Posted - 06/18/2008 : 03:31:39
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quote:
Originally posted by MisterBadIdea
the moral dilemma in Gone Baby Gone... is in fact a moral dilemma.
Not a chance. |
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MisterBadIdea
"PLZ GET MILK, KTHXBYE"
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Posted - 06/18/2008 : 03:37:50
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| Okay, put simply, you have two choices: Leave a child with strangers who will treat the child wonderfully but have no right to her, or with her mom who will horribly neglect the child. I don't see how this isn't a moral dilemma. Granted, you can pick apart the scenario: What about calling social services, why not give her to her aunt, and so on, but just taking the scenario on its own terms, I don't see how one can decide that it's not at least worth considering. |
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Demisemicenturian
"Four ever European"
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Posted - 06/18/2008 : 04:36:35
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Because it's only a moral dilemma if any normal actual people would be in a dilemma over it. None would.
In contrast, choosing to fight or not is a moral dilemma. |
Edited by - Demisemicenturian on 06/18/2008 04:37:24 |
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MisterBadIdea
"PLZ GET MILK, KTHXBYE"
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Posted - 06/18/2008 : 06:12:21
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Because it's only a moral dilemma if any normal actual people would be in a dilemma over it. None would.
May I humbly suggest that you do not know anyone raised in such circumstances.
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In contrast, choosing to fight or not is a moral dilemma.
It's a dilemma, perhaps. Not a moral dilemma. And ultimately, he chose to fight for non-moral reasons -- they TRIED TO KILL HIM. That's not a fight for justice, that's a fight for revenge, and he made it look so easy that one wonders what could have made it such a struggle in the first place. |
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BaftaBaby
"Always entranced by cinema."
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Posted - 06/18/2008 : 09:37:02
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The moral point is how does the 3rd party act in the circs. Illegally? Or, just as a for instance,
Pre-kidnap
1. With or without the collusion of the adopting couple, bring in social services and have the child taken into care.
2. Testify in the early stages of adoption procedure to the couple's suitability to raise the child, ie support the adoption.
3. If those dispensing the legal decision disagree, accept there are more suitable adoptive parents available. Maybe even try to find them.
Kid wins. Admittedly no film.
Post-kidnap
Pretty much the same, but without complicity of putative aging adoptive couple. Cold logic says anyone -- especially a lawman who knows all procedure -- capable of kidnapping -- is a dubious choice for parenthood.
Kid wins. Different movie.
I'm betting there would have been not only a better character study, but a truly moral film, if Casey A's dilemma were entirely personal. It's ridiculous for Freeman to be the kidnapper. Keep the emotional tension where it belongs - between Casey and wife. Either make her the kidnapper. Or make an another 3rd party the kidnapper - e.g. Bea and Lionel without the help of the cops, which is a stupid plot device.
Then the dilemma would be because Mr and Mrs Casey have polar positions on starting a family, one or the other's infertility, one or the other's contrivance to keep the kid. See how the reality of morality affects two people we really care about. As it is, the wife is just thrown away, a totally unbelievable reaction. Just as the film throws away our own genuine moral instincts.
The morality in this film is a plot device, it's ersatz. It helps reinforce a particularly nasty vigilante culture. Everyone who thinks they are right and acts outside the law is not always right. It's a dangerous mentality. When it pretends to be morality it's even more dangerous.
The challenge in deconstruction is not merely to accept the given premise, but to understand that what seems like a solid edifice is useless when built upon quicksand.
Affleck's film has lots going for it. A moral treatment it ain't.
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Demisemicenturian
"Four ever European"
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Posted - 06/18/2008 : 09:41:58
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quote:
Originally posted by MisterBadIdea
May I humbly suggest that you do not know anyone raised in such circumstances.
No, you may not.
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That's not a fight for justice, that's a fight for revenge
Whether or not to take revenge is a moral dilemma without the slightest question. |
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Demisemicenturian
"Four ever European"
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Posted - 06/18/2008 : 09:44:52
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Originally posted by BaftaBabe
As it is, the wife is just thrown away, a totally unbelievable reaction.
Yup, of all the developments that are beyond credibility, this is the most ridiculous. |
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MisterBadIdea
"PLZ GET MILK, KTHXBYE"
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Posted - 06/18/2008 : 13:54:31
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No, you may not.
Then may I humbly retract that suggestion. I still don't agree with your assertion that no normal people would leave the kid with the nice kidnappers than with the horrible, horrible mom.
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Whether or not to take revenge is a moral dilemma without the slightest question.
It can be. It's certainly not the moral dilemma posed by Michael Clayton. The moral dilemma Michael Clayton pretends to consider is whether he should blow the whistle on his clients. This decision is made infinitely easier when they try to kill him. Put simply, it is not a serious consideration of the issue. |
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Gone Baby Gone - some spoilers
