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Joe Blevins 
"Don't I look handsome?"
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 Posted - 08/05/2010 : 00:55:51
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quote:
Originally posted by ChocolateLady
Which makes it a pretty lousy film.
But... isn't this list of items missing something - the "Pow" factor? This is an action film, and therefore it should also be judged on that scale as well.
You took the words out of my mouth -- or would have, if I'd been able to come up with words. The major design flaw in the Film Threat scale is that it does NOT account for action films and thrillers, so a film like Inception is left out in the cold. There definitely needs to be a sixth category -- "pow" -- to accommodate them. It's tough to put into words the mental and physical reaction we have to on-screen action. (In my original post, I considered something about the heart beating faster or the pulse quickening, but it didn't have the ring of the other five categories.)
The film's immense popularity has me asking myself: what, exactly, do we want out of movies? What do we want out of narratives in general? I heard one Inception-related podcast in which Nolan was described as an "accomplished storyteller," and yet after watching five of his movies, I am still in doubt as to his ability to actually tell a story. I think of a master storyteller as someone who knows he/she has a good yarn to tell and can't wait to let you in on it. I'm not sure Nolan fits that description exactly. |
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ChocolateLady 
"500 Chocolate Delights"
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Posted - 08/05/2010 : 11:48:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Joe Blevins
The film's immense popularity has me asking myself: what, exactly, do we want out of movies? What do we want out of narratives in general? I heard one Inception-related podcast in which Nolan was described as an "accomplished storyteller," and yet after watching five of his movies, I am still in doubt as to his ability to actually tell a story. I think of a master storyteller as someone who knows he/she has a good yarn to tell and can't wait to let you in on it. I'm not sure Nolan fits that description exactly.
Yes, this makes him a great 'effects shower' but not necessarily a great storyteller.
What do we want out of movies? I know what I want but apparently, that's irrelevant - I'm obviously so much in the minority it isn't even funny. It seems to me that there's a large group of people in Hollywood who think we want to be bowled over by the newest and most fancy technology they can come up with, and hang the story, acting and directing. If they're right, then the art of making movies is going down the tubes fast and big-time.
(Thank heavens we can still get TCM and MGM and buy films that would give you your 8-9-10/10 on Film Threat's little set of categories.)
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benj clews 
"...."
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Posted - 08/05/2010 : 12:01:08
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| I'm not sure I totally agree as regards Nolan not being a storyteller of at least some considerable merit. Sure, the characters aren't necessarily ones you root for immensely but you can't deny the skill in his juggling- what was it?- four parallel, interconnected dream storylines, each occurring at different speeds and still having the audience understand what was going on. Heck, he didn't even have to resort to split screen to do it either. |
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BaftaBaby 
"Always entranced by cinema."
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Posted - 08/05/2010 : 12:33:46
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quote:
Originally posted by benj clews
I'm not sure I totally agree as regards Nolan not being a storyteller of at least some considerable merit. Sure, the characters aren't necessarily ones you root for immensely but you can't deny the skill in his juggling- what was it?- four parallel, interconnected dream storylines, each occurring at different speeds and still having the audience understand what was going on. Heck, he didn't even have to resort to split screen to do it either.
It's not just because you are benj-Borg that I agree! Nolan didn't just abandon his considerable story-telling skills, nor his intelligent approach as a film-maker. He may not always get it right - and with Inception I think he just goes at it too long and hard - but he speaks the language of film.
I'm glad ChocoLady and Joe have brought up the action quotient. I've been thinking about why those sequences appear when they do and how they seem to interrupt the more 'story' aspects. If you take the premise I outlined above in which I maintain that the film is not about dreams, but about shaping the fabric of your life - then the action sequences make perfect sense.
This is because - given our overstimulated western lives, mostly fragmented into sectors of family, work, and leisure - our thinking time, however little we make for ourselves during our waking lives, is continually interrupted by meeting the external challenges of the moment.
This makes it really tough to deal with the tough stuff - like reconciling relationships with dead/dying parents, being tempeted by the destruction of moral imperatives, taking responsiblity for our actions and coming to terms with the consequences.
Those action sequences which are the diversions of our lives, cloud our judgments about the past, and throw us into confusion about the present. We speculate on a future that remains unknown, unspun. We take refuge in dreams, which are neither logical, nor provide any answers. Even when they seem to recur, our perspective changes.
We wake. And BANG! We're shot again into a frantic world demanding our attention.
No, it's not the greatest film ever made, but it's more absorbing than a dream-fest. IMHO 
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Joe Blevins
"Don't I look handsome?"
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Posted - 08/07/2010 : 02:23:16
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quote:
Originally posted by benj clews
I'm not sure I totally agree as regards Nolan not being a storyteller of at least some considerable merit. Sure, the characters aren't necessarily ones you root for immensely but you can't deny the skill in his juggling- what was it?- four parallel, interconnected dream storylines, each occurring at different speeds and still having the audience understand what was going on. Heck, he didn't even have to resort to split screen to do it either.
Okay, sure, but here's the thing:
It's been less than a week since I saw Inception, and the film itself has all but evaporated from my mind. There are no scenes or lines that have stuck with me, haunted me, rattled around in my head, etc. I would agree that it is a clever piece of plotting -- the narrative equivalent of juggling, as you say -- but I'm not sure that any of it constitutes a genuine "story." Earlier I called the movie "a neat trick," which makes the juggling comparison even more apt. To put it another way: a juggling act is a neat trick, but is it a story? (NOTE: It's not juggling, but there is a scene in The Aristocrats in which a magician performs a narrative card trick, actually a series of card tricks that tell a story!)
Getting back to Inception, the film made only a minor impression on me, but its popularity has caused me to re-examine my ideas of narrative itself. I ask again: What is it that we as human beings want out of a story? What is a story, exactly? Why do we tell stories to one another? Well, a multitude of reasons. Sometimes stories make us laugh (but Inception isn't particularly funny). Sometimes stories make us cry (but Inception isn't particularly moving). Sometimes stories arouse us physically (but Inception isn't particularly sexy). Sometimes stories give us insight into the human condition (but Inception isn't particularly wise). I could go on and on listing the things that stories -- as I understand that term -- generally do for us as audience members, and I can't say that Inception does any of them particularly well. Even judged purely as an action movie, it's middling at best. I recently had the opportunity to rewatch Die Hard 2, and I was surprised at how quickly I got involved in the film's simple yet effective narrative. The action in DH2 was every bit as contrived as that of Inception but felt much more visceral, much more powerful. That, to me, is an action movie.
So I guess my concern is: what are we, as audience members, supposed to get out of Inception besides an admiration for how clever Christopher Nolan is? How does Inception fit into the grand tradition of storytelling that stretches back to the cavemen re-enacting the saga of the hunt? How is Inception a story and not just a neat trick? |
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BaftaBaby
"Always entranced by cinema."
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Posted - 08/07/2010 : 10:22:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Joe Blevins
quote:
Originally posted by benj clews
I'm not sure I totally agree as regards Nolan not being a storyteller of at least some considerable merit. Sure, the characters aren't necessarily ones you root for immensely but you can't deny the skill in his juggling- what was it?- four parallel, interconnected dream storylines, each occurring at different speeds and still having the audience understand what was going on. Heck, he didn't even have to resort to split screen to do it either.
Okay, sure, but here's the thing:
It's been less than a week since I saw Inception, and the film itself has all but evaporated from my mind. There are no scenes or lines that have stuck with me, haunted me, rattled around in my head, etc. I would agree that it is a clever piece of plotting -- the narrative equivalent of juggling, as you say -- but I'm not sure that any of it constitutes a genuine "story." Earlier I called the movie "a neat trick," which makes the juggling comparison even more apt. To put it another way: a juggling act is a neat trick, but is it a story? (NOTE: It's not juggling, but there is a scene in The Aristocrats in which a magician performs a narrative card trick, actually a series of card tricks that tell a story!)
Getting back to Inception, the film made only a minor impression on me, but its popularity has caused me to re-examine my ideas of narrative itself. I ask again: What is it that we as human beings want out of a story? What is a story, exactly? Why do we tell stories to one another? Well, a multitude of reasons. Sometimes stories make us laugh (but Inception isn't particularly funny). Sometimes stories make us cry (but Inception isn't particularly moving). Sometimes stories arouse us physically (but Inception isn't particularly sexy). Sometimes stories give us insight into the human condition (but Inception isn't particularly wise). I could go on and on listing the things that stories -- as I understand that term -- generally do for us as audience members, and I can't say that Inception does any of them particularly well. Even judged purely as an action movie, it's middling at best. I recently had the opportunity to rewatch Die Hard 2, and I was surprised at how quickly I got involved in the film's simple yet effective narrative. The action in DH2 was every bit as contrived as that of Inception but felt much more visceral, much more powerful. That, to me, is an action movie.
So I guess my concern is: what are we, as audience members, supposed to get out of Inception besides an admiration for how clever Christopher Nolan is? How does Inception fit into the grand tradition of storytelling that stretches back to the cavemen re-enacting the saga of the hunt? How is Inception a story and not just a neat trick?
Well, referring again to what I've said above about what the film is actually about: like a handful of films, story isn't really the point.
I believe what Nolan's trying for - as he did with Memento, albeit with more story - is what the human condition feels like. In that sense it's an expressionistic film whose roots you can trace along a rocky road to such as Dali and Bu�uel.
Inception seems to provide story points, in the way that dreams seem to follow a kind of logic. But it's the process that matters. And it's all too damn mercurial.
Maybe that's why the film doesn't really work, because, as you say, it's not very satisfying on your list of other requisites.
Trust you, though, Joe, to stimulate such an interesting discussion  Thank you!
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Falken
"Intestinal Fourtitude."
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MisterBadIdea 
"PLZ GET MILK, KTHXBYE"
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Posted - 08/27/2010 : 15:01:09
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I need to register my opinion right now.
Die Hard 2 is an awful, awful movie. Easily the worst and most unpleasant of the series. Hated it from beginning to end.
Inception is not as great as everyone says, but I will not stand to hear someone compare it unfavorably to that slobbering idiot Renny Harlin's crap pile Die Hard 2. |
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Inception
