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Whippersnapper. 
"A fourword thinking guy."
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 Posted - 06/07/2006 : 11:45:30
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Oh Sean, you're one confused kid! 
You are mixing up two different ideas  .
The first issue is what the idea would delete, and the second is what it wouldn't delete.
Just to keep you on your toes, I'll deal with the second first, and the first second.
Firstly, my idea does not deal with unimaginative reviews which have votes. I do not know how you get rid of these reviews except on an individual basis which would be incredibly time-consuming and cause lots of rows with reviewers who wrote the reviews and don't agree with that opinion. If anyone out there knows how to deal with this problem, please let us know.
I freely admit that my idea doesn't deal with Third World Debt or Aids or Western/Islamic relations either.
Secondly, moving on to the first issue , the idea does try to deal with poor reviews which never get any votes over a long period of time. Yes, there are good reviews which don't get any votes, so go vote for them. People like you will make a point of protecting reviews which they consider to be worthy. Maybe I will too. So the effect will be to get people to show some appreciation for worthwhile reviews instead of ignoring them. No doubt some will fall by the wayside but - and this is the judgment required to accept or reject the idea - it may be a price worth paying for getting rid of a lot of dross, which, under current practice, threaten to sit there forever like rotting fish penguins and stink the place out.
The only alternative I've heard is to leave the reviews as is and live with it, which is also a perfectly possible if imperfect solution. That, as I see it, is the choice.
And however bad the idea may be, it's really nowhere near as bad as the idea of AC having an average 6.4 reviews in each accolade.  
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bife 
"Winners never quit ... fwfr ... "
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Posted - 06/07/2006 : 12:09:38
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Bloody hell. Turn my back for 5 minutes and I miss the fwfr debate of the year, and the first decent mguyx rant for about 12 months
What can I say - the dross is there, and I can't see any objective way of clearing it out, so since it does me no harm, I say leave it
Much more damaging, to my mind, are the number of copycat or 'formulaic pun' reviews.
I can live with the dross all day, because I have no expectations from a review that says 'Big ship sinks' and I'll skim over it without a second thought.
However, finding that every good review is copied three or four times in different guises, either by taking the same review, meant the same way, to a different movie, or by taking the same 'joke' and twisting it ever so slightly, or by 'improving' another reviewer's pun - all these things upset me, and they are way too prevelent. They even exist within the Top 100 Reviews
If you can't think of a funny review for a movie, I'd much rather you write 'x verbs y's noun' than modifying an existing good review to make another 'good' review.
When I joined the site a couple of years ago, I was hooked instantly by the originality of some of the reviews. It's been a long time since I had that same feeling.
Every now and then a newbie comes along and adds something fresh (boydegg being a good recent example), but it's happening less and less
And I do miss noncentz! |
Edited by - bife on 06/07/2006 12:10:42 |
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Sean 
"Necrosphenisciform anthropophagist."
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Posted - 06/07/2006 : 13:28:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Whippersnapper
Oh Sean, you're one confused kid!
You are mixing up two different ideas .
No, I think we understand each other perfectly.  quote:
Secondly, moving on to the first issue , the idea does try to deal with poor reviews which never get any votes over a long period of time. Yes, there are good reviews which don't get any votes, so go vote for them. People like you will make a point of protecting reviews which they consider to be worthy. Maybe I will too. So the effect will be to get people to show some appreciation for worthwhile reviews instead of ignoring them.
Good idea, here are 700 for starters. I'm about to hit the sack but will have a good whack at them in the morning. I'd say good zeroes get ignored because nobody knows they're there, i.e., they languish at the bottom of movie pages on zero votes because the writers don't go begging for votes like we do. quote:
No doubt some will fall by the wayside but - and this is the judgment required to accept or reject the idea - it may be a price worth paying for getting rid of a lot of dross...
I think not. I'd hate to see that page of 700 disappear, and the thousands of other good zero-voters that have zero votes simply because nobody has ever seen them. 
My guess is that deleting old zeroes is a dead idea, fingers crossed.  Anyway, I thought benj started this thread not to come up with ways of slaughtering thousands of uninteresting reviews, but to get some thinking a bit harder about reviewing styles and what they submit in future. |
Edited by - Sean on 06/07/2006 13:31:12 |
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Arch Stanton 
"I am a gardener."
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Posted - 06/07/2006 : 13:57:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Se�n
quote:
Originally posted by Whippersnapper
Oh Sean, you're one confused kid!
You are mixing up two different ideas .
No, I think we understand each other perfectly. quote:
Secondly, moving on to the first issue , the idea does try to deal with poor reviews which never get any votes over a long period of time. Yes, there are good reviews which don't get any votes, so go vote for them. People like you will make a point of protecting reviews which they consider to be worthy. Maybe I will too. So the effect will be to get people to show some appreciation for worthwhile reviews instead of ignoring them.
Good idea, here are 700 for starters. I'm about to hit the sack but will have a good whack at them in the morning. I'd say good zeroes get ignored because nobody knows they're there, i.e., they languish at the bottom of movie pages on zero votes because the writers don't go begging for votes like we do. quote:
No doubt some will fall by the wayside but - and this is the judgment required to accept or reject the idea - it may be a price worth paying for getting rid of a lot of dross...
I think not. I'd hate to see that page of 700 disappear, and the thousands of other good zero-voters that have zero votes simply because nobody has ever seen them.
My guess is that deleting old zeroes is a dead idea, fingers crossed. Anyway, I thought benj started this thread not to come up with ways of slaughtering thousands of uninteresting reviews, but to get some thinking a bit harder about reviewing styles and what they submit in future.
Surely the simplest and most straight forward and uncomplicated and solve all this hot air bullshit is for Mr Clews to reject all the no brainer reviews he's referring to in the first place and delete all the crap he's passed (pardon the disgusting imagery ) thus far, whether they have votes or not because we know about the I'll vote for yours if you vote for mine nonsense and I can't believe I'm getting all worked up about this and don''t worry about me adding anymore reviews for the next .....oh it'll be a f"^*'ing long time anyway as I've got FWFR's block...and i've deleted about 70 or 80 reviews this morning that I've been feeling guilty about....that have been already passed...and yes yes i'm sure there are 400 others...and..... well....well....thats it!!
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BiggerBoat
"Pass me the harpoon"
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Posted - 06/07/2006 : 14:22:05
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If I can chuck my hat into the ring.
Reviews that have obviously had minimal thought put into them actually offend me. When I have to read reviews that have been squeezed out in the blink of an eye with little regard for any of us poor suckers that have to read them, I consider it a waste of the reviewer's time (which is their problem) and (more importantly) mine. Concise they may be, as dictated by the site's one golden rule, but sticking your middle finger up at me is as concise in my book. I consider it much the same thing.
Now I appreciate that I'm different from most folks on here and if I chase anything, it's a good average vote - I don't do accolades and I'm not too bothered about total number of reviews - but I still have quality control. I've deleted quite a few of my reviews because they're not up to much, and if they annoy me with their lack of quality, I wouldn't want to foister them onto anyone else.
The fundamental problem is that the quality reviews are being lost in a storm of dross. Yes the FYC thread allows us to put out good reviews on show and yes the top twenty for the day generally reflects the quality that is constantly poured into the site, but only regular fourumers are recognised. I like to go through the latest reviews but to be honest, after ten minutes of panning for a few nuggets of quality, I tend to give up.
The onus, therefore, is on the reviewers. Punitive measures, aside from the MERPS getting a bit stricter, won't work. And there should be less of the back-slapping, vote-swapping cabals that reward nothing except the ability to ignore your own standards for the sake of a few votes.
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MguyXXV
"X marks the spot"
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Posted - 06/07/2006 : 14:31:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Arch Stanton
Surely the simplest . . . is for Mr Clews to . . . delete all the crap he's passed . . . .
Benj: if you haven't deleted all of the crap you've passed, there's a little lever right over your shoulder after you sit down . . . please, for the sake of all that is decent, PULL THE LEVER MAN!!!! |
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randall 
"I like to watch."
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Posted - 06/07/2006 : 14:44:01
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quote:
Originally posted by BiggerBoat
And there should be less of the back-slapping, vote-swapping cabals that reward nothing except the ability to ignore your own standards for the sake of a few votes.
Whoa, Nellie. I've never given my vote to a review that I didn't think deserved it. Can't imagine it happening to me either. I probably miss some votes in the FYCTH cabal because I decline to explain my reviews, but why in the world would somebody vote for a review they didn't like?
P.S.: Is it still a cabal if anybody can join? |
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Whippersnapper.
"A fourword thinking guy."
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Posted - 06/07/2006 : 14:45:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Se�n
quote:
Originally posted by Whippersnapper
Oh Sean, you're one confused kid!
You are mixing up two different ideas .
No, I think we understand each other perfectly. [quote]
Yeah, it's almost like we're twins.
Like Danny & Arnie.
While You Were Sleeping I hit a few of the 700; the rest I'll leave to you.
After that you can take a look at my burgeoning collection of zeros.
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benj clews 
"...."
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Posted - 06/07/2006 : 15:27:34
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| Yep, I also never vote for reviews I don't think deserve it, but I do sometimes get the feeling there's a bit of "I'll vote on yours if you vote on mine" going on. Basically, whilst I reckon most folks generally subscribe to the point of view that votes are sacred, some are treating them as a form of currency. Just a feeling I get- no evidence of course |
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BiggerBoat
"Pass me the harpoon"
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Posted - 06/07/2006 : 15:37:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Randall
quote:
Originally posted by BiggerBoat
And there should be less of the back-slapping, vote-swapping cabals that reward nothing except the ability to ignore your own standards for the sake of a few votes.
Whoa, Nellie. I've never given my vote to a review that I didn't think deserved it. Can't imagine it happening to me either. I probably miss some votes in the FYCTH cabal because I decline to explain my reviews, but why in the world would somebody vote for a review they didn't like?
P.S.: Is it still a cabal if anybody can join?
I think a cabal is a secret society, so a thread in a forum isn't exactly the same but I think you get my meaning.
I'm not saying everyone does this but when I read stuff like 'I just voted on all your zeroes' and 'right back at ya', it makes me think that there are too many 'sell-outs' getting involved in some kind of online dick-sucking competition. I really don't agree with it at all. I joined a couple when I was a newbie and felt a pressure to reciprocate when I didn't want to, so I stopped getting involved. |
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randall
"I like to watch."
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Posted - 06/07/2006 : 15:52:50
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Bestowing votes definitely tends to lead to receiving votes, but I've never felt quid pro quo pressure from anyone. When I do FYCTH or Mania rounds, I only promise to read the specified pages, not to give any quota of votes. When congratulating someone on an achievement, I've always been able to find at least one or two deserving reviews which I've overlooked [usually among 0-voters].
I repeat: I'm happy to vote for the clever, concise reviews I feel deserve it. The rest get nothing from me. My vote is applause, not currency. |
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Arch Stanton
"I am a gardener."
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Posted - 06/07/2006 : 15:57:00
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quote:
Originally posted by BiggerBoat
quote:
Originally posted by Randall
quote:
Originally posted by BiggerBoat
And there should be less of the back-slapping, vote-swapping cabals that reward nothing except the ability to ignore your own standards for the sake of a few votes.
Whoa, Nellie. I've never given my vote to a review that I didn't think deserved it. Can't imagine it happening to me either. I probably miss some votes in the FYCTH cabal because I decline to explain my reviews, but why in the world would somebody vote for a review they didn't like?
P.S.: Is it still a cabal if anybody can join?
I think a cabal is a secret society, so a thread in a forum isn't exactly the same but I think you get my meaning.
I'm not saying everyone does this but when I read stuff like 'I just voted on all your zeroes' and 'right back at ya', it makes me think that there are too many 'sell-outs' getting involved in some kind of online dick-sucking competition. I really don't agree with it at all. I joined a couple when I was a newbie and felt a pressure to reciprocate when I didn't want to, so I stopped getting involved.
....yeh...what he said.
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Montgomery
"F**k!"
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Posted - 06/07/2006 : 15:57:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Se�n
I'd say good zeroes get ignored because nobody knows they're there, i.e., they languish at the bottom of movie pages on zero votes because the writers don't go begging for votes like we do.
I think you are right, Sean. And, if we do decide to start eliminating reviews based just on the fact that the reviewer has not put their work out on the street, begging for votes, as you say, then I will have to start a new thread/vote plea set-up -- "Zero votes that need a vote to live."
Imagine your (and mine and everyone's) zero vote reviews out on the street with a cup -- "Please sir, can you spare a vote?" It's sad.
I'm going to go cry now.
I also have never voted for a review I did not think deserved it. I have participated in, the "Let's look at each others pages and vote" activities, but during that time, if I went onto another reviewer's page and didn't see anything I liked, I didn't vote. Sorry if that upsets some of you. But, all I ever promised was that I would look and vote for what I liked. My votes are precious to me. And therefore, more worth the winning.
EM :)
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Tori
"I don't get it...."
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Posted - 06/07/2006 : 16:30:16
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| If I get involved in vote-giving, I look at the pages requested and vote for the ones I believe deserve a vote. I don't just vote for every review. Likewise, when I'm just browsing and giving votes, I don't just say "Oh, there's one of Josh's reviews...he's a good friend, I'll give him a vote." I vote for the ones of his that I love. Same with every other reviewer. I also don't hold back votes just because I may not like them or agree with them. It's about the quality of the review and nothing more. |
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BaftaBaby
"Always entranced by cinema."
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Posted - 06/07/2006 : 16:37:15
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quote:
Originally posted by benj clews
Yep, I also never vote for reviews I don't think deserve it, but I do sometimes get the feeling there's a bit of "I'll vote on yours if you vote on mine" going on. Basically, whilst I reckon most folks generally subscribe to the point of view that votes are sacred, some are treating them as a form of currency. Just a feeling I get- no evidence of course
Well, I think your feeling is spot on, mate. In fact in my newbi-ness I guess I assumed that was the game. Like when someone announces they've reached this many reviews, or has completed that many accolades and you're 'expected to' clear the zero mountain. That really is the impression given by a cursory reading of relevant postings. So, silly me with my Sally Field head on, I've been playing that game - they like me, they really like me! Sad, but true. So I promise you, Benj, and I promise you everyone I am not going to do that ever again, and if that means I don't get asked to the prom, well ... boo-fucking-hoo.
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Quality reviewing
