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MguyXXV 
"X marks the spot"
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 Posted - 11/18/2006 : 01:22:50
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[This post makes sense only if you saw the post that immediately preceded it. It was a quote of Lenny Bruce's "Nigger, nigger, nigger, nigger" routine. It has since been deleted. I guess it offended someone.]
quote:
Originally posted by MguyX
Something about your comment reminds me of the Lenny Bruce bit where he states that people should use certain slurs so often that they become meaningless. The difference, however, is that Lenny was talking about words whose usage is intended to demoralize and to demean because they imply something inherently inferior in the person and ethnicity to whom/which they refer. "Nazi" was supposed to signify "the master race." It was supposedly a badge of honor. It was a term indulged by a group of people from whom we could expect the racial slurs. Somehow, the term and its necessary history does not lend itself to the type of sympathetic amelioration-through-usage as does those terms otherwise signifying the classically oppressed.
 Damnit! If you don't read the earlier posts [PAGE 4!!!], I'm just going to have to keep quoting myself! 
(Hey: did you see that horse's leg twitch? I thought i saw it move! It moved! It moved! *thwack!* "thwack!* *thwack!* "thwack!* *thwack!* "thwack!* *thwack!* "thwack!* *thwack!* "thwack!* *thwack!* "thwack!* *thwack!* "thwack!* *thwack!* "thwack!* *thwack!* "thwack!* *thwack!* "thwack!* *thwack!* "thwack!* *thwack!* "thwack!* *thwack!* "thwack!* *thwack!* "thwack!* *thwack!* "thwack!* *thwack!* "thwack!* *thwack!* "thwack!* Whew! I think I got it.  ) |
Edited by - MguyXXV on 11/18/2006 02:08:44 |
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Joe Blevins 
"Don't I look handsome?"
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Posted - 11/18/2006 : 01:41:51
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Mguyx:
I have done my best to express my views here in a respectful manner which does not resort to accusation or name-calling. You have simply not granted me that same courtesy. Your last open letter to me completely and callously misinterpreted my views and attributed to me a variety of opinions which I simply do not hold. I find in your posts a sense of blinkered, stubborn self-righteousness one normally associates with propaganda and not with the constructive and open exchange of ideas. I could quote several particularly egregious passages which border on character assassination, but what purpose ultimately would be served? I saw this thread as an opportunity to objectively discuss words and their effect on us and, more specifically, how their effect on us changes with the passage of time. You took it, apparently, as a declaration of war.
For the record, I never said -- or even came within miles of implying -- that the insensitive use of language is "perfectly okay." You are attributing that opinion to me to serve your own purposes. There is much about your post which is similarly irresponsible, but I will not waste your time or mine with a catalogue of complaints.
If you want to consider this a formal surrender, then consider it as such. |
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Sean
"Necrosphenisciform anthropophagist."
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Posted - 11/18/2006 : 01:49:50
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quote:
Originally posted by MguyX
I hope y'all niggas get my drift.
Hey MguyX! I'm one of those niggas who finally got your drift! You don't like being called a "Nazi" (even in jest) simply because you want to fix errors / kill dupes / kill old generics / fix typos etc.
Fair point. I'll never call it the "Nazi button" (not that I ever would have). I had never gone beyond "Report button". 
Now which one of you nazis got my review deleted as 'too generic'... 
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MguyXXV
"X marks the spot"
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Posted - 11/18/2006 : 01:54:27
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That would be me.  |
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Catuli 
"Loves Film and Fun"
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Posted - 11/18/2006 : 04:50:08
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Actually a word's meaning isn't responsive to what some may regard as socially acceptable. Linguistics has an inexorable law that if a word is commonly used in a given way, then that becomes the word's prevailing definition, no matter how much it may deviate from its original meaning. "Nazi" has come to mean excessively autocratic. Legions of examples support this. While that usage may trivialize the brutal, inhumane connotation of what Nazi meant in the '40s, this is now the 2000s and memory fades. I'm not contending that this is right, correct, proper, and desirable, but merely that this is.
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Cheese_Ed
"The Provolone Ranger"
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Posted - 11/18/2006 : 06:07:42
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Ok, everybody just calm down.
Dr. Cheese has just the prescription - take two fluphenazines and post here in the morning.
By the way, is this not the definition of linguistic anti-serendipity? |
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Catuli
"Loves Film and Fun"
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Posted - 11/18/2006 : 06:17:54
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I don't think I'd like to have a Dr. Cheese in my HMO. With a name like that, he'd probably be too casual about high cholesterol.  [2]
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MguyXXV
"X marks the spot"
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Posted - 11/18/2006 : 06:25:06
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Joe:
I understand your frustration. I apologize to you unreservedly for anything that you perceived as even bordering on character assassination. I did not intend to insult you, but what is important is that you felt insulted. That is the thing I want to address. Because you felt insulted, I apologize, becaus I do not want to insult you. I thought I was making clear that I intended no personal attack on you when I made the statement that I was neither attacking you nor denigrating your talent and intelligence. The implacable phenomenon, however, is that you perceived insult, when I intended none. There is nothing wrong with your perception: it is what it is. As with a math problem, elements of what I said added up in your arithmetic to an insult. Regardless of my motivation, I hear that you feel I was trying to abuse you, and I understand, and I apologize. You are a very clever person, as evidenced by the strong wit apparent in your many reviews. I have stated this publicly (indeed, when you were relatively new to the site), and I continue to stand behind that.
I know full well that you were explaining an actual function of language: the meaning of words evolve. You are absolutely correct: they do. Just as permutations of �nigger� have come to take on even laudatory meaning (e.g. as in �you mah nigga!), I acknowledge that �Nazi,� with a capital or even a lowercase �n� can be used in a non-offensive manner. I liked, especially, bife�s citation to dictionary.com�s �jazz nazi,� because we all know one.
There are just a couple of observations that serve to further actuate this discussion.
1. There are some arguments that cannot ever be won, because there is always an emotional counter-argument that, by design, cannot be defeated. For example, one is always on uncertain footing when giving Hitler credit for anything. This is because his legacy negates anything positive he may have done. Substitute the names of John Wayne Gacy, Ted Bundy, George Bush (O.K., calm down you Republican assholes) .. the result is the same. Whenever the term �Nazi� is involved, the phenomenon of the unwinnable argument arises. Why? Because,
2. There�s no accounting for taste. So, it�s nearly impossible to argue it. Just like there�s no accounting for certain opinions. I think Communism is a failed political system. Castro doesn�t. What can I do? I can invite him for tea, and we can watch baseball together (unless he just really urks me). But I cannot make him believe an issue that involves relativeness.
3. I do find the unqualified term "Nazi" to be offensive. The reason I raised the issue is that I felt it was too extreme. Here's the other irony: I'm Muslim. Personally, I feel the bigotry of many because of the extremist actions of some. I don't condone anti-semetism. And i don't condone terrorism. So to me, it's important to defend the memory of my Jewish brethren in spite of the idiotic and un-Islamic views and actions of the uninformed people of some of my own religion. I react because I feel I MUST react in light of the prejudices that might otherwise cause some to view me in that ugly, untoward way.
4. [Damnit! I'm making a list of four! You KNOW I don't do that!] I argue for a living. That�s what I do. I have a doctorate in a profession that exalts argument. So, in an argumentative street fight, I come from a school of technique. If you have read any of my real rants, you probably should know that I explore both sides of an issue. Because that's what a real argument is supposed to do. But it's tactically bad to do that when the other side won't acknowledge your position. Here, the absence of acknowledgment (i.e. �Nazis are asses, regardless of how they package themselves�) is only an invitation to force the counter argument into the impossible position (i.e., �there is a way to save the word from its legacy�). The fact that language evolves will never eliminate � at least in our lifetimes � the legacy that some words carry. Hence, the person arguing from the elevated position (i.e., "that shit is bad no matter what you say") will always have the upper hand. But don't think that this was merely a linguistic argument for me (which is, technically, a fifth point, but I refuse to put that number in front of a new paragraph). Notwihstanding, I honestly do abhor the likening of me -- or anyone in a position similar to me -- to that of a Nazi. Jew-haters are stupid and evil! We (Muslims and Jews) share a common grandfather (Abraham)! So it's a family issue for me, and for anyone really paying attention to belief and ancestry.
If you were reading previously in the thread, I already apologized to CL for being a bit heavy in my criticism. After that, I found myself having to deconstruct my criticism in response to the assertion of linguistic evolution. There very well may come a day when the word �Nazi� means something good. I don�t see it, but give us a couple hundred years and it may happen. All I was really saying was as follows: please do not use unmodified trigger words, especially in the context of something not so bad in itself (i.e., making the site better by reducing the incidence of duplication).
I apologize, again, for saying anything offensive to you (or to Catuli, if you felt that way too). Joe, I know you had and have nothing but love in your heart in participating in this discussion. I apologize for taking it to extremes. I was wrong. And I apologize to you, again.
(BTW: I sent Joe a personal apology as well. I'm sorry, gang. I don't want to alienate anyone of our wonderful circle of friends.) Hugs???? |
Edited by - MguyXXV on 11/18/2006 07:46:44 |
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ChocolateLady
"500 Chocolate Delights"
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Posted - 11/18/2006 : 08:04:25
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quote:
Originally posted by bife
Definition 3 of 4 from dictionary.com:
3. Sometimes Offensive. (often lowercase) a person who is fanatically dedicated to or seeks to control a specified activity, practice, etc.: a jazz nazi who disdains other forms of music; tobacco nazis trying to ban smoking.
So it seems you're all right. The word has slipped so much from its original that even dictionary.com defines it with its secondary 'lowercase' meaning. But it can't bring itself to remove the 'sometimes offensive' tag
When I read chocky's post i didn't for one moment think she was refering to mguyx as an actual Nazi, or suggesting that he might share their views. I knew that she was saying he was 'fanatically dedicated to control' the quality of other people's reviews (I know of course that cl didn't actually single out mguy)
But I do think that, perhaps, the journey of 'nazi' from literal to figurative is not yet complete. I don't think mguyx would be alone in being offended by it. Maybe in another 10/20 years that wont be true anymore.
This is good. Of course I wasn't trying to say that the people who click on "Report" are 'report nazis', or any other kind of nazi, for that matter. However, the button itself is a feature 'dedicated to control', is it not? In this case, a good kind of control (and not necessarily fanatical, but that's besides the point).
But again, I understand the error of my ways, appologise to everyone and really, really think we should drop this now. I was joking around and because hate using smilies to try to get people to get my jokes, people took my words the wrong way. My Bad!
(Now, is this horse dead enough yet? I really need some glue! [insert any smilie you can think of that will keep me from getting into trouble with Animal Rights people, Vegetarians or haters of the movie Young Frankenstein])
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Edited by - ChocolateLady on 11/18/2006 08:15:11 |
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randall 
"I like to watch."
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Posted - 11/18/2006 : 11:05:30
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Good day.
How do you work this goddam Narzi button anyway?
And which one of you twits declined my LONGEST DAY review?
Warm regards,
Winston Churchill |
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Whippersnapper. 
"A fourword thinking guy."
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Posted - 11/18/2006 : 12:55:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Catuli
Actually a word's meaning isn't responsive to what some may regard as socially acceptable. Linguistics has an inexorable law that if a word is commonly used in a given way, then that becomes the word's prevailing definition, no matter how much it may deviate from its original meaning. "Nazi" has come to mean excessively autocratic. Legions of examples support this. While that usage may trivialize the brutal, inhumane connotation of what Nazi meant in the '40s, this is now the 2000s and memory fades. I'm not contending that this is right, correct, proper, and desirable, but merely that this is.
Again, what it may become is not the issue. The issue is what it is now. Death may be inevitable but that doesnt mean we're dead already.
The only issue, as I see it, is whether the term "Nazi" is acceptable now, here on fwfr, in the context of describing someone who reports someone else's review.
Not surprisingly, given our different social backgrounds, we have different opinions as to whether what was clearly intended as a joke was actually appropriate or not.
Personally I can live with it, as there seems to me to be a difference between laughing at Nazis and laughing at Nazism. However, to those who feel MguyX over-reacted, I can't think of many causes for which I'd be more inclined to forgive an over-reaction than the desire to prevent the trivialisation of the heinous oppression of one group of people by another.
However, whilst I can put up with "Nazi", the use of expressions which appear to justify or make light of the exploitation of innocent animals, particularly causing them unnecessary pain to the point of death, simply cannot be tolerated here or in any decent society and Chocky has REALLY done it this time! We're going to have to look at vote-docking for this!
()
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ChocolateLady
"500 Chocolate Delights"
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Posted - 11/18/2006 : 14:38:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Whippersnapper
Personally I can live with it, as there seems to me to be a difference between laughing at Nazis and laughing at Nazism. However, to those who feel MguyX over-reacted, I can't think of many causes for which I'd be more inclined to forgive an over-reaction than the desire to prevent the trivialisation of the heinous oppression of one group of people by another.
Totally.
quote:
However, whilst I can put up with "Nazi", the use of expressions which appear to justify or make light of the exploitation of innocent animals, particularly causing them unnecessary pain to the point of death, simply cannot be tolerated here or in any decent society and Chocky has REALLY done it this time! We're going to have to look at vote-docking for this!
()
I knew it. I just knew it! I can never get a break. I guess I'm looking at a future with 1424 zero voted reviews and 131 declines from my pending pile. (Anyone got a pouting similie they can insert here?)
(I bet Mercury is in retrograde right now and that's why this is all happening.) |
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Catuli
"Loves Film and Fun"
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Posted - 11/18/2006 : 14:59:02
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Actually, Whipper, as regards your analogy of "death may be inevitable, but we're not dead yet," essentially the original meaning of Nazi is dead. Its definition has mutated to mean "a ruthless, autocratic attitude." I'm sure Draconian (now commonly lowercased) once conveyed something much worse than "severe" or "harsh," but such is the march of word meanings, or prance in the case of "gay."
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Whippersnapper.
"A fourword thinking guy."
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Posted - 11/18/2006 : 17:18:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Catuli
Actually, Whipper, as regards your analogy of "death may be inevitable, but we're not dead yet," essentially the original meaning of Nazi is dead. Its definition has mutated to mean "a ruthless, autocratic attitude." I'm sure Draconian (now commonly lowercased) once conveyed something much worse than "severe" or "harsh," but such is the march of word meanings, or prance in the case of "gay."
Maybe its dead for you, but obviously the original meaning of Nazi is not dead for MguyX, or indeed for me, although we are both aware of other depleted meanings.
I remain fully aware that one meaning of Nazi is someone who was a member of the German National Socialist Party from the 1920s onwards. These people went on to ruthlessly persecute millions of people and cause the Second World War in which tens of millions of people were killed.
If there are people out there who read the word Nazi in connection with 1930/40s European history and are unable to associate this with being a member of that party thats rather a pity, isnt it? We're talking about something which happened within some people's lifetimes.
As I said before, we are a disparate group who have different opinions on this and people would do well to remember that a term which they might consider inoffensive could offend others.
And as for Chocky, now she's making disparaging remarks about astrology, an ancient belief system subscribed to by much of the planet! Has she no decency at all?? Who will she offend next??
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MguyXXV
"X marks the spot"
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Posted - 11/18/2006 : 17:47:27
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| Read this. It's still not dead. |
Edited by - MguyXXV on 11/18/2006 17:47:48 |
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Okay, NOW I'm pissed!
