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w22dheartlivie 
"Kitty Lover"
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 Posted - 01/18/2007 : 13:40:06
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Airbolt's story brings to mind some other factors that differ between US football and UK soccer. He mentioned a team that did move and another team was formed after it left.
In US professional football, teams are governed by an organizational structure called the National Football League (NFL). The NFL consists of only 32 teams in the entire country. The teams are divided into two conferences - the American Football Conference (AFC) and the National Football Conference (NFC). Each conference then has four divisions - North, South, East and West. As I mentioned, the teams themselves are primarily privately owned by individuals, groups or corporations. The owners hold the franchise of the team and have leeway in moving the teams. However, this isn't done lightly or quickly, and in some cases it just doesn't happen. Cities vie to entice teams to move there by building new multi-million dollar stadiums and offer endless perks. The trend now is for large corporations to underwrite the construction of the stadiums in exchange for the structure carrying the corporation's name. While professional baseball and, to a lesser extent, professional basketball have farm systems
In any case, the structure is set, fairly much in stone. The teams in each conference play each other and only play against the other conference at season's end at the Superbowl. New teams are very rarely franchised. A few years ago, an attempt was made to start another football association, but it eventually failed. Professional basketball and baseball both have similar governing structures.
The major difference between pro football and the other two sports (besides how the games are played) has to do with their system of acquiring and training member players. For the most part, US baseball teams have their farm teams, contract players directly from college or high school, and players earn their way up to the "show." Farm teams are often called the Minor Leagues (the Charlie Sheen film was called Major League). In basketball, the NBA owns an entire farm league for basketball. Unlike baseball, pro basketball and football rarely contract players just out of high school. All of the kinds of leagues draft or contract players coming out of college sports.
I think that the relative permanence of any given team, despite the fact they can and do move from time to time, is a factor in how rabid the fans may become. The concept of professional football itself is so tightly controlled and governed, from ownership to location to salaries to even how a player comes to be contracted to a team, that it has become extremely depersonalized and manufactured. That ends up alienating the "superfans" and eventually results in fans investing less emotion in the game. What you end up with is something akin to David Beckman leaving not only a team, but a country in order to further the big business of the sport. |
Edited by - w22dheartlivie on 01/19/2007 07:53:34 |
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Airbolt 
"teil mann, teil maschine"
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Posted - 01/18/2007 : 15:17:48
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Crowd chants and songs are an area where there are differences. Certainly singing seems to be be more orchestrated at US sports whereas European Crowds just seem to start a song on their own.( although the infamous one sung about Posh is unlikely to sung at the LA Galaxy , trust me )
Taunts about the referees eyesight, inclinations and/or parentage appear to be universal |
Edited by - Airbolt on 01/18/2007 22:36:22 |
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Shiv 
"What a Wonderful World"
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Posted - 01/18/2007 : 22:58:55
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Does North America have the same amount of violence associated with baseball, basketball or football (with the big pads) as the Latin American and European football (with the round ball) clubs? You will probably have heard of the Columbian (I think) referee that was killed, and of course the organised gangs of hooligans in Europe? I state organised, because that is what it is - it's more like a war, and of course the truth is that the game itself is in many ways irrelevant.
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Downtown 
"Welcome back, Billy Buck"
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Posted - 01/18/2007 : 23:21:02
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It's really hard to make blanket statements about American sports fans because it varies so much from region to region. In some parts of the country (particularly the South), many sports fans don't even care about pro sports, but mention college hoops or college football and they'll get into a frenzy. Here in the Northeast, college sports are almost an afterthought. In DC, fans are insane about the Washington Redskins (pro football), but in the last 100 years, two Major League Baseball teams have come and gone for lack of fan interest. They're currently on their third, now that the Montreal Expos have become the Washington Nationals (that was the first time an MLB team moved in about 40 years, btw).
To address shiv's question, no, you don't have anything near those levels of violence, certainly not IN the actual venues, where security is usually pretty tight. In fact, at many venues, even using foul language can get you immediately ejected, because teams are focused on creating a "family friendly" environment. Usually, alcohol will stop being served at a set time during the game (after the third quarter, or during the 7th inning), and can be cut off earlier if it's deemed necessary. There have been unfortunate incidents at sports rallies and celebrations, however. When the Red Sox beat the Yankees in 2004, a car that was unfortunate enough to have New York plates was set of fire (the car was unoccupied). There was also a famous unfortunate death on that night, but it was really the fault of the police, not the fans. When the Bulls won their first championship in '91 against the Lakers, someone wearing a Lakers jacket along the parade route got beaten up.
Of course I've been describing the fans only. Anyone who's followed the news knows the athletes are a different story altogether. The only sport where "bench clearing brawls" are rare seems to be hockey, which is funny considering that hockey matches frequently feature fights.
Do European sports fans tailgate? I get the feeling that's a purely American tradition. |
Edited by - Downtown on 01/18/2007 23:36:29 |
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Airbolt
"teil mann, teil maschine"
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Posted - 01/19/2007 : 00:13:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Downtown
It's really hard to make blanket statements about American sports fans because it varies so much from region to region. In some parts of the country (particularly the South), many sports fans don't even care about pro sports, but mention college hoops or college football and they'll get into a frenzy. Here in the Northeast, college sports are almost an afterthought. In DC, fans are insane about the Washington Redskins (pro football), but in the last 100 years, two Major League Baseball teams have come and gone for lack of fan interest. They're currently on their third, now that the Montreal Expos have become the Washington Nationals (that was the first time an MLB team moved in about 40 years, btw).
To address shiv's question, no, you don't have anything near those levels of violence, certainly not IN the actual venues, where security is usually pretty tight. In fact, at many venues, even using foul language can get you immediately ejected, because teams are focused on creating a "family friendly" environment. Usually, alcohol will stop being served at a set time during the game (after the third quarter, or during the 7th inning), and can be cut off earlier if it's deemed necessary. There have been unfortunate incidents at sports rallies and celebrations, however. When the Red Sox beat the Yankees in 2004, a car that was unfortunate enough to have New York plates was set of fire (the car was unoccupied). There was also a famous unfortunate death on that night, but it was really the fault of the police, not the fans. When the Bulls won their first championship in '91 against the Lakers, someone wearing a Lakers jacket along the parade route got beaten up.
Of course I've been describing the fans only. Anyone who's followed the news knows the athletes are a different story altogether. The only sport where "bench clearing brawls" are rare seems to be hockey, which is funny considering that hockey matches frequently feature fights.
Do European sports fans tailgate? I get the feeling that's a purely American tradition.
To answer the question of tailgating first. Most US sports arenas have enough parking to accomodate the expected crowd - which leads to the tradition of tailgating and a generally relaxed atmosphere. Contrast this with the European tradition , where arenas were located in closely built industrial cities. Of course , when they were started car ownership was not for the working class and fans trooped in on public transport and foot.
Of course , given the rising tide of vandalism in the 1960's onwards , no-one in their right mind would have left their car anywhere near a Ground. Eventually , after stadium disasters involving large loss of life such as Hillsborough ( Crowd surge caused over 100 Deaths ) and Heysel ( Wall collapses during crowd trouble causing multiple Deaths ) stringent restrictions restored order within the arenas.
Outside is another matter. The whole ethos of going to a match is so soaked in macho tribal codes that it can be very off putting. While most crowds are not all men , it is a high percentage. Most Grounds are all seater ( see above disasters )but the testoterone levels are fairly high and the language is "industrial " to say the least. There are childrens enclosures at some Grounds but anny parent would shudder at the crowd taunts and songs .
Plus , even though many Teams chose to build " out of town " arenas and move to them , it is very rare for there to be Parking more the whole crowd. There just isnt the space in a lot of cases as many jostle for position with Discount Warehouse and the like.
BTW my hint for watching World Cup Games is to find a country that isnt competing or that has a very relaxed fans - then Go there on holiday and watch it from a Barstool with a cool one and without the macho fans . I watched a Game in a Bar in Tokyo and the atmosphere was magic - no hassle , just a widescreen plasma , lots of frosties and plenty of pretty girls in face paint. Doesnt get any Better than that! |
Edited by - Airbolt on 01/19/2007 00:19:56 |
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randall 
"I like to watch."
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Posted - 01/19/2007 : 12:49:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Downtown
It's really hard to make blanket statements about American sports fans because it varies so much from region to region. In some parts of the country (particularly the South), many sports fans don't even care about pro sports, but mention college hoops or college football and they'll get into a frenzy.
You're so right about the regional differences, but I'm from the Deep South, and down there college football rules. In the Midwest, where some of the greatest college basketball teams are located, the real season is basketball.
Those are admittedly generalities, but I think most people who live in those regions would nod in agreement. |
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Koli
"Striving lackadaisically for perfection."
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Posted - 01/19/2007 : 20:58:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Downtown
quote:
Originally posted by Koli
Perhaps the answer is to rename the US game 'American rugby'; it seems to bear a closer resemblance to rugby (probably league rather than union) than to soccer.
What a fantastically original and insightful observation. 
Just came back to see whether anyone had taken the bait, and what do I see? Downtown of all people.
Relax, matey. My tongue was firmly in my cheek when I said that. |
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Shiv
"What a Wonderful World"
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Posted - 01/20/2007 : 02:50:11
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BTW my hint for watching World Cup Games is to find a country that isnt competing or that has a very relaxed fans - then Go there on holiday and watch it from a Barstool with a cool one and without the macho fans . I watched a Game in a Bar in Tokyo and the atmosphere was magic - no hassle , just a widescreen plasma , lots of frosties and plenty of pretty girls in face paint. Doesnt get any Better than that!
The Japanese are no less fanatical about their football though. Just a much more civilised sports culture to be sure. I watched the World Cup that was partly hosted by Japan with Japanese friends. You wouldn't know how disappointed they were that South Korea (the other co-host) got further in that cup despite Japan being the better team on paper - and indeed they went all out to support them. Relations between Japan and Korea haven't historically been the best. In Europe it would have been an excuse for fans to fight.
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Downtown
"Welcome back, Billy Buck"
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Posted - 01/20/2007 : 03:42:09
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quote:
Originally posted by AIRBOLT
BTW my hint for watching World Cup Games is to find a country that isnt competing or that has a very relaxed fans - then Go there on holiday and watch it from a Barstool with a cool one and without the macho fans .
So America would work. We frequently qualify but never compete. Come on over and watch it here next time. |
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Sean
"Necrosphenisciform anthropophagist."
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Posted - 01/20/2007 : 04:26:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Shiv
Relations between Japan and Korea haven't historically been the best.
What's the occasional war between friends?  |
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turrell
"Ohhhh Ohhhh Ohhhh Ohhhh "
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Posted - 01/20/2007 : 07:48:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Randall
You're so right about the regional differences, but I'm from the Deep South, and down there college football rules. In the Midwest, where some of the greatest college basketball teams are located, the real season is basketball.
Those are admittedly generalities, but I think most people who live in those regions would nod in agreement.
Essentially if you live in a big city yo probably root for Pro teams (I grew up in Chicago and thus cheer for Bears, Bulls, Cubs, and lesser the Sox). I think the smaller the town usually pulls for State U.
As for violence in association with US sports - mostly in Basketball and Hockey usually when your team wins the championship. For the most part it is not one group against another as much as punks looking for a reason to loot. |
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Gentleman Ghost
"Brevity: soul of wit."
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Posted - 01/20/2007 : 20:53:28
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To chime in on the soccer vs. football thing, as an American, I don't have the same disdain for soccer that many other Americans do. That's probably because I played it into my high school years. Also, my family only watched sports about once a year (Stanford vs. Cal), so I never really got into American football. I didn't start watching it until college when I had a roommate who was coaching the sport at a high school.
However, as a spectator sport, I do think that American football has the edge. And not for the reasons that most Americans profer. Every time I see a soccer game on TV (usually Mexico or South America), the camera seems stuck in a perpetual long shot. Granted, the ball can traverse the field and switch sides very rapidly, so maybe this is the only shot possible. Still, it seems as though there must be some way to get the camera in closer without disrupting the game. Maybe European teams have more money to spend on camera tachnology and get better angles, but their games seldom make it to American TV unless there's a headbutt involved, so I don't know. Other than that, I have nothing bad to say about soccer. |
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Catuli
"Loves Film and Fun"
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Posted - 01/20/2007 : 23:20:41
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You're so right about the regional differences, but I'm from the Deep South, and down there college football rules. In the Midwest, where some of the greatest college basketball teams are located, the real season is basketball.
Those are admittedly generalities, but I think most people who live in those regions would nod in agreement.
There is, within the South, one subregional anomaly for their general primary passion for football and that is North Carolina, where college basketball is king. The mania among the clustered schools of Duke, North Carolina, North Carolina State, and Wake Forest is rife and legendary.
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randall
"I like to watch."
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Posted - 01/21/2007 : 00:22:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Catuli
You're so right about the regional differences, but I'm from the Deep South, and down there college football rules. In the Midwest, where some of the greatest college basketball teams are located, the real season is basketball.
Those are admittedly generalities, but I think most people who live in those regions would nod in agreement.
There is, within the South, one subregional anomaly for their general primary passion for football and that is North Carolina, where college basketball is king. The mania among the clustered schools of Duke, North Carolina, North Carolina State, and Wake Forest is rife and legendary.
Absolutely, Catuli [Gesundheit!]. NC is a hoops Nirvana. [But the Research Triangle is also a Southern anomaly...] I am a native Virginian with familial roots in rural NC... |
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w22dheartlivie
"Kitty Lover"
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Posted - 01/21/2007 : 07:01:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Catuli
There is, within the South, one subregional anomaly for their general primary passion for football and that is North Carolina, where college basketball is king. The mania among the clustered schools of Duke, North Carolina, North Carolina State, and Wake Forest is rife and legendary.
It's interesting in that it's self-perpetuating. Being Midwestern, born and bred, it's true that the bassaball is king. Indiana is known in sports, for better or worse, for the Indianapolis 500 and for the Purdue and Indiana University teams (and their former legendarily effected coaches Gene Keady and Bobby Knight). Every year, when the NCAA championships begin, I join a pool. Some of those North Carolina teams always find their way across the pool to the final 4 or 8 on my roster. It speaks of the overall success of those teams, over decades. They keep winning, thus keep attracting the brightest and best of the high school players. And so it goes. On the other hand, one team I always seem to take to the final 4 or 8, Arizona, never seems to fulfill its promise to complete the challenge, yet continues and excels as a Western powerhouse. I've always thought it was due to its conference, and the lack of challenge during the regular season.
Oh, lest I forget, my alma mater, Ball State University (insert appropriate Ball U comment here), has made it to the show once or twice.... |
Edited by - w22dheartlivie on 01/21/2007 07:04:12 |
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How much British/U.S. culture confounds MERPs?
