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Shiv 
"What a Wonderful World"
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 Posted - 02/14/2007 : 01:33:39
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quote:
Originally posted by BaftaBabe
Re: those pesky plots -- well, the number is misleading. The real point is that our species has been telling each other stories for as long as we had language. Over the thousands of years and the refinement of the story-telling arts standard or archetypical plots developed [also archetypal characters]. These flowered from tales/poems/songs of hunting and gathering, joy of birth, sadness at loss. They codified into myth and other spiritually sanctioned oral tales. Gradually the tales weren't merely narrated, they were acted out.
My point is that by the time films came along storytelling was a practiced artform indeed. ... as far as I can tell, the effect of all the amazing technological advances which cinema has achieved have certainly helped filmmakers in how to tell their tales, but they haven't done much for what those tales are quintessentially.
Okay, intro over. Here are some basic plot lists:
The six standard plot archetypes:
Man versus Man
Man versus Society
Man versus Self
Man versus Nature
Man versus Supernatural
Man versus The Machine
Others claim 20 kick-offs for stories:
1. Quest
2. Adventure
3. Pursuit
4. Rescue
5. Escape
6. Revenge
7. The Riddle
8. Rivalry
9. Underdog
10. Temptation
11. Metamorphosis
12. Transformation
13. Maturation
14. Love
15. Forbidden Love
16. Sacrifice
17. Discovery
18. Wretched Existence
19. Ascension
20. Descension
Even the most mechanistic of sci-fi or fantasy characters need to relate to the human condition for them to have any lasting impact on readers/viewers. There aren't that many films with no people interacting and elucidating the human condition: and that includes animated animals, alien threats, and robots.
I'm going to shut up now  
Awesome amount of information here.
My job involves working with Aboriginal people who do not want to lose their ancient languages. Those languages were and still are oral and what is being lost is not just 'language' as a verbalised and structured mechanism of expressing meaning - but all those elements of storytelling you mention and the cultural and moral teachings contained in them. In this environment I see proof of the observation that film is a progression from the storytelling of old. |
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Sean 
"Necrosphenisciform anthropophagist."
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Posted - 02/14/2007 : 02:57:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Whippersnapper
If you weren't so ignorant you would realise that given Orson Welles was heavily billed as the star of the film, and his character was supposed to have died before the film started in shady, contradictory and disputed circumstances, anyone with half a brain would be very aware his character was probably not really dead at all.
True, but his appearance in the movie may well have been in a flashback near the end of the movie (i.e., once the mystery was 'solved') in order to show the viewer the sequence of events, a not-uncommon occurrence in movies.
I actually saw this movie for the first time only a few months ago, at the time I saw it was not aware of the 'spoiler', and was also not aware of the character played by Orson. I liked watching it that way. I'm kind of glad I didn't read this thread first.
The fact that you've seen this movie doesn't mean that everyone has. How about a 17 year old fwfrer? It takes a lifetime to see the world's good movies, and people won't necessarily start with the best of the classics. I'm 39 and have yet to see 1984 even though I see about 250 movies per year. Haven't seen Double Indemnity either, although that will change tonight as it just arrived in the post (netflix).
Not everyone agrees with your "It's an old movie so who cares about spoilers" position. I recall a thread a year ago where I thoughtlessly mentioned a major spoiler about Planet of the Apes (the Heston version) and promptly went to bed. Randall posted and asked me to remove the spoiler pronto before other participants in the thread saw it (there were some who had not seen the movie). Benj then did the right thing and stepped in and removed the spoiler from my post while I was asleep.
IMO there aren't too many movies around that are capable of being massively spoiled (i.e, that contain serious plot twists), but The Third Man is one of them, along with The Sixth Sense, POTA etc. So, I don't think it's terribly hard to provide the occasional spoiler warning when it's appropriate, it's standard procedure on movie websites. IMDb has a reporting system for spoiler reviews or posts (for occasions when the poster doesn't provide a warning). Upon report the post is deleted, as is the account of those guilty of regular transgressions.  |
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Sean
"Necrosphenisciform anthropophagist."
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Posted - 02/14/2007 : 02:58:58
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Nice list, Baffy. So which of those plots does Eskimo Gang Bang fit into? Or should I watch it again and try to work it out for myself?  |
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BaftaBaby 
"Always entranced by cinema."
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Posted - 02/14/2007 : 08:52:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Se�n
Nice list, Baffy. So which of those plots does Eskimo Gang Bang fit into? Or should I watch it again and try to work it out for myself?
Uhm ... An Alien rides into [ahem] town?!!!   
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BaftaBaby
"Always entranced by cinema."
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Posted - 02/14/2007 : 09:56:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Shiv
quote:
Originally posted by BaftaBabe
Okay, I'll have a wee think-ette. But, since I don't know what films you may/may not have seen, it would help if you could post a list of say 5-10 you're thinking of seeing and/or a genre which you normally like to see without any prior knowledge. Deal?
Um, yes, of course it would be hard for you to suggest titles!
Okay, I've had a think. What about one of the following?
Gosford Park
Silkwood
City of God
Colour Me Kubrick
Far From Heaven
Eyes Wide Shut
These are reasonably recent movies that I have a vague notion about, but have intentionally stayed away from reading reviews of and watching the pundits talk about. My normal preference would be to come to these fresh - wanting to experience them without the publicity that seemed to surround them or the actors in them. So I offer them as a sacrifice!
Thanks for the other info
Hiya
Interesting choices, all. But I'm going to suggest Gosford Park which edges out the others because of its genre. Up to you to see if it strays over the border into the scary territory of NonGenreLand! 
Go forth, view, conquer!
Report back!!!
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Shiv
"What a Wonderful World"
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Posted - 02/14/2007 : 10:36:33
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quote:
Originally posted by BaftaBabe
Go forth, view, conquer!
Report back!!!
Shall do |
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ChocolateLady 
"500 Chocolate Delights"
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Posted - 02/14/2007 : 11:31:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Se�n
Nice list, Baffy. So which of those plots does Eskimo Gang Bang fit into? Or should I watch it again and try to work it out for myself?
Any of these will do, I believe:
quote:
Man versus Man
Man versus Society
Man versus Self
Man versus Nature
Although I tend to think it is the last one in the list.
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Edited by - ChocolateLady on 02/14/2007 11:31:48 |
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BiggerBoat 
"Pass me the harpoon"
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Posted - 02/14/2007 : 18:01:26
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| Good work Baffy, although I hope there was plenty of cutting and pasting amongst all that. I'm going to scour this list as it may help with my latest project - I'm writing a sit-com with a friend of mine and neither of us have got any experience in the field whatsoever. The more tips I can get, the better. |
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Rovark
"Luck-pushing, rule-bending, chance-taking reviewer"
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Posted - 02/14/2007 : 18:36:56
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She-Who-Must-Be-Obeyed studied English at Uni and was taught that there were 7 basic stories.
Personally I've never suscribed to the whole "7 Basic Plots in Literature" idea. After all, there's also proponants for 20 basic plots and 36 basic plots.
You can just as easily reduce it further to 3 plots, Happy Ending, Unhappy Ending, Ambiguous Ending. Or 1 plot covering everything which consists of Setup, Conflict, Resulution.
It's an intellectual exercise which is amusing to discuss and haggle over but ultimately complete nonsense and really, just having a laugh.
It's like trying to reduce a film to just 4 words. I mean, c'mon now.
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Whippersnapper. 
"A fourword thinking guy."
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Posted - 02/14/2007 : 19:31:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Se�n
quote:
Originally posted by Whippersnapper
If you weren't so ignorant you would realise that given Orson Welles was heavily billed as the star of the film, and his character was supposed to have died before the film started in shady, contradictory and disputed circumstances, anyone with half a brain would be very aware his character was probably not really dead at all.
True, but his appearance in the movie may well have been in a flashback near the end of the movie (i.e., once the mystery was 'solved') in order to show the viewer the sequence of events, a not-uncommon occurrence in movies.
I actually saw this movie for the first time only a few months ago, at the time I saw it was not aware of the 'spoiler', and was also not aware of the character played by Orson. I liked watching it that way. I'm kind of glad I didn't read this thread first.
The fact that you've seen this movie doesn't mean that everyone has. How about a 17 year old fwfrer? It takes a lifetime to see the world's good movies, and people won't necessarily start with the best of the classics. I'm 39 and have yet to see 1984 even though I see about 250 movies per year. Haven't seen Double Indemnity either, although that will change tonight as it just arrived in the post (netflix).
Not everyone agrees with your "It's an old movie so who cares about spoilers" position. I recall a thread a year ago where I thoughtlessly mentioned a major spoiler about Planet of the Apes (the Heston version) and promptly went to bed. Randall posted and asked me to remove the spoiler pronto before other participants in the thread saw it (there were some who had not seen the movie). Benj then did the right thing and stepped in and removed the spoiler from my post while I was asleep.
IMO there aren't too many movies around that are capable of being massively spoiled (i.e, that contain serious plot twists), but The Third Man is one of them, along with The Sixth Sense, POTA etc. So, I don't think it's terribly hard to provide the occasional spoiler warning when it's appropriate, it's standard procedure on movie websites. IMDb has a reporting system for spoiler reviews or posts (for occasions when the poster doesn't provide a warning). Upon report the post is deleted, as is the account of those guilty of regular transgressions.
"Planet Of The Apes" is certainly a prime example of a film which would be devalued by being told the spoiler you allude to. It is not obvious, largely because up to then the film did not seem to be making too many political points, and its that shift of emphasis which makes it such a surprise. So much so that I'm considering PMing it to Sal in the near future. 
"The Third Man" really does not compare, because it is telegraphed scene by scene and, if you were surprised by it then I'm surprised at you. Even so, you'll note that I didn't say a word about the plot until after you had seen it.
OK, so if there was someone who has not seen the film, not having had the opportunity to do so - unlike Sal who chooses to spend his time watching any kind of dross rather than the no.1 British film of all time, and therefore gets zero sympathy from me - sees the spoiler. They intend to se the film and are incapable of putting this plot information out of their mind, try though they might. And when they see the film they're enjoyment is greatly diminished by this knowledge, being unable to derive much pleasure out of the rest of the production. OK, yes, this rare person would be affected, but theres no many of 'em around here and theres a lot more people who might enjoy discussing plot devices from old films which many many people have already seen.
And for the avoidance of problems in the future:
Sal must assume that any of my posts may contain spoilers and therefore I recommend he does not bother reading them.
Anyhow, this topic is rich coming from you. Your "The Emperors Hike Back" put me off seeing "The March Of The Penguins." I wanted to watch it and not know where they were going! You spoilt it for me! 
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BiggerBoat
"Pass me the harpoon"
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Posted - 02/14/2007 : 21:22:56
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| Good work Baffy, although I hope there was plenty of cutting and pasting amongst all that. I'm going to scour this list as it may help with my latest project - I'm writing a sit-com with a friend of mine and neither of us have got any experience in the field whatsoever. The more tips I can get, the better. |
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BaftaBaby
"Always entranced by cinema."
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Posted - 02/14/2007 : 22:50:39
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quote:
Originally posted by BiggerBoat
Good work Baffy, although I hope there was plenty of cutting and pasting amongst all that. I'm going to scour this list as it may help with my latest project - I'm writing a sit-com with a friend of mine and neither of us have got any experience in the field whatsoever. The more tips I can get, the better.
My best tip for you:
Get hold of the Victoria Wood scripts - they're published by Methuen I think. Just do it!
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BiggerBoat
"Pass me the harpoon"
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Posted - 02/15/2007 : 01:54:39
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quote:
Originally posted by BaftaBabe
quote:
Originally posted by BiggerBoat
Good work Baffy, although I hope there was plenty of cutting and pasting amongst all that. I'm going to scour this list as it may help with my latest project - I'm writing a sit-com with a friend of mine and neither of us have got any experience in the field whatsoever. The more tips I can get, the better.
My best tip for you:
Get hold of the Victoria Wood scripts - they're published by Methuen I think. Just do it!
Really? I never liked her, but that could be because she was getting big (on TV) when I was just reaching adolescense and I wanted my women to look like Daisy Duke and not like my frumpy Aunt. She also spoke about stuff I couldn't really relate to back then, so maybe I should give her a chance. When I've seen her on compilation comedy shows over thelast few years I have found her a lot more accessible so I'll do that Baffy, I'll check her out. Cheers |
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Demisemicenturian
"Four ever European"
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Posted - 02/20/2007 : 19:25:02
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quote:
Originally posted by BiggerBoat
Seriously Sal, if you love this site so much, why do you try to ruin it? So many decent threads turn into a swamp of pedantry with you dominating the boards and picking apart every tiny detail. It's dull and no one wants to read it. You said in a thread recently that you get lonely because no one else shares your views. Have you ever considered the possibility that it's not everyone else who is wrong??
I know that you said that you didn't want answers, but since that equates to saying that you want the last word, and since I happen to want to answer, I'm going to. I am not at all troubled if you do not want to read my answers: please feel free to stop now if so.
Anyone can skip past any post of mine that they want to; this does not really cause them any inconvenience.
Sure, on here, because of the subject matter, I am often interested in details. I would in fact say that people are on the wrong film site if they are not.
No, I certainly did not say that I was lonely. That is an odd assumption for you to jump to and spread around. I said something like it would be nice to have friends with whom I have a lot in common. (By this I meant who shared my moral outlook, something that I never ever talk about here - in case you imagined that I feel the need to press my general opinions on people.) I am not lonely with the many friends I have got. They just have different views which, while fine, are sometimes a bit wearing - as it is me who has to go along with the consequences of their views and never vice versa.
The things I talk about here are only because they are relevant and because it is in fact other people who like to state their opinions as facts without supporting them in any way. I rarely get into these sorts of arguments in real life, because in conversations, people tend not to make wild statements and then develop their points from there before anyone can respond. |
Edited by - Demisemicenturian on 02/20/2007 20:11:39 |
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Demisemicenturian
"Four ever European"
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Posted - 02/20/2007 : 19:40:10
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quote:
Originally posted by BaftaBabe
The six standard plot archetypes:
Man versus Man
Man versus Society
Man versus Self
Man versus Nature
Man versus Supernatural
Man versus The Machine
Thanks for all that. Very interesting. This therefore just comes down to nomenclature. I don't have any problem in accepting that all stories may be made up of these. (I can also accept that conversely some may not, but cannot think of any examples.) However, to me, much more specific story points (even than your kick-offs/situations) are just plot too. I realise that the plot cannot just be every detail of the story, but I would interpret it as including reference to all progressions of the story. I'm just as interested in this as in other features of films. Thus, even with the added interest of comparison, I am less interested in adaptations of novels I've read than other films (at least in the abstract - having chosen to read the novel means that I am likely to be more interested than average in the genre concerned).
It is completely fine for people to be more interested in all the other aspects, but I think that that leaning in some people has contributed towards the rise of spoilers. They really did not use to be a problem here. |
Edited by - Demisemicenturian on 02/20/2007 20:01:13 |
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Who'll Take the Critic's Challenge?
