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Demisemicenturian 
"Four ever European"
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 Posted - 09/27/2007 : 09:32:59
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Manufacturing Dissent
I saw this last night and recommend it to anyone. I previously thought that the main criticisms of Moore's films were that they did not give a balanced view (which I think is completely fine, as (i) they are polemic, not the news and (ii) the other sides have been more than sufficiently presented by the U.S. government and others). However, assuming (ironically) that this documentary is truthful, that is not the case. In increasing order of severity, the films contain (i) comments shown out of context, (ii) set-up sitiuations, (iii) distorted chronologies and (iv) completely fictional events. I still think that Moore's viewpoint is in the roughly correct area, but his subscribing to the mentality that the ends justifies the means is abhorrent to me. I'll be reducing my scores here for his films now. And Pope George Ringo's review is absolutely spot on in terms of Moore evading being interviewed (which, it turns out, Roger Smith did not). |
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BaftaBaby 
"Always entranced by cinema."
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Posted - 09/27/2007 : 12:32:31
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Coincidentally, I'm currently working on a tie-in piece to this film which tries to extrapolate from what may or may not be the truth. I'll letcha know when it's in the paper.
All I'll say now is ... the situation isn't as straight-forward as it seems.
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Sean 
"Necrosphenisciform anthropophagist."
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Posted - 09/27/2007 : 13:20:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Salopian
In increasing order of severity, the films contain (i) comments shown out of context, (ii) set-up situations, (iii) distorted chronologies and (iv) completely fictional events.
I think this is clear from watching Moore's films. I've only seen Columbine and Fahrenheit, but that was enough for me, I won't be seeing any others of his. He's inherently dishonest, and I wouldn't trust him as far as I could kick him (not very far, actually, unless he's started dieting).
My guess is I wouldn't learn anything from Manufacturing Dissent so won't be rushing out to see it, but expect I'll get the DVD out at some stage. |
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Demisemicenturian
"Four ever European"
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Posted - 09/27/2007 : 13:39:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Se�n
quote:
Originally posted by Salopian
In increasing order of severity, the films contain (i) comments shown out of context, (ii) set-up situations, (iii) distorted chronologies and (iv) completely fictional events.
I think this is clear from watching Moore's films.
It wasn't all clear to me before, at least. Yes, (i) was relatively clear; (ii) was not such a surprise but the extent of it was (the example was the gun from the bank - Moore's team made the bank get it from their vault 300 miles away to hand over in the bank, which is very different to the norm); (iii) (in terms of A then B or B then A, not just periods in between) and (iv) were a shock to me, to be honest.  |
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Demisemicenturian
"Four ever European"
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Posted - 09/27/2007 : 13:39:48
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quote:
Originally posted by BaftaBabe
the situation isn't as straight-forward as it seems.
Intriguing... |
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duh 
"catpurrs"
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Posted - 09/27/2007 : 17:30:54
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| As I posted elsewhere, I think Moore is an American success story. Think about it...the man has no class, no appeal whatsoever, yet through hard work and creativity, he has made himself not only wealthy, but a household name. Just like Martha Stewart. And Donald Trump. And Hugh Hefner. |
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ChocolateLady
"500 Chocolate Delights"
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Posted - 09/28/2007 : 07:43:18
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I would say "oh, my heavens, how horrible" except that I happen to believe that those documentaries that have tried to disprove Moore's theories and accusations have done exactly the same things as he has done to make his points, if not worse.
That's life. He's trying to make a point and convince others that his view is right. If he has to bend the facts a bit to do so, then so be it. I don't believe his opponents are angels, in fact I'm sure they're doing a whole lot of much worse things to try to discredit him.
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Sean
"Necrosphenisciform anthropophagist."
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Posted - 09/28/2007 : 13:28:25
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quote:
Originally posted by ChocolateLady
I would say "oh, my heavens, how horrible" except that I happen to believe that those documentaries that have tried to disprove Moore's theories and accusations have done exactly the same things as he has done to make his points, if not worse.
That's life. He's trying to make a point and convince others that his view is right. If he has to bend the facts a bit to do so, then so be it. I don't believe his opponents are angels, in fact I'm sure they're doing a whole lot of much worse things to try to discredit him.
Moore is guilty of the same kind of blatant deception that he correctly assigns to Bush et al. And I'd guess some of Moore's opponents are also guilty of deception in their attempt to discredit him.
But I didn't need anyone to point out to me that Moore is very deceitful. It was crystal clear to me from watching his movies.
It's quite possible that Moore is motivated primarily by ego and/or greed, rather than politics or philosophy (he certainly has no respect for truth). He simply identified a market (that was not being catered for), and sells the market what it wants to hear. Yep, a success story. |
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Demisemicenturian
"Four ever European"
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Posted - 09/28/2007 : 15:24:25
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quote:
Originally posted by ChocolateLady
He's trying to make a point and convince others that his view is right. If he has to bend the facts a bit to do so, then so be it. I don't believe his opponents are angels, in fact I'm sure they're doing a whole lot of much worse things to try to discredit him.
Like I say, I still roughly agree with Moore's political outlook, but he is quite, quite wrong that the ends justify the means. As Sean indicates, part of the problem is also the hypocrisy.
I don't have any time for the right-wing responses to Moore's films, but the interesting thing about this was is that it is by a left-wing person who was initially a fan of his. However, it sounds as though Bafta is investigating its veracity, so I shall reserve final judgment for now. |
Edited by - Demisemicenturian on 09/28/2007 15:50:49 |
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BaftaBaby
"Always entranced by cinema."
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Posted - 09/28/2007 : 15:38:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Salopian
I don't have any time for the right-wing responses to Moore's films,; but the interesting thing about this was is that it is by a left-wing person who was initially a fan of his. However, it sounds as though Bafta is investigating its veracity, so I shall reserve final judgment for now.
I'm not promising anything definitive, but there do seem to be anomalies. The piece should be in on Tuesday, but may get bumped because of the party conferences -- if so, it'll go in the following week.
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Sean
"Necrosphenisciform anthropophagist."
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BaftaBaby
"Always entranced by cinema."
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GHcool
"Forever a curious character."
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Posted - 10/13/2007 : 06:30:44
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We can start a whole post about the "what is a documentary" debate, but whatever Moore's films are, I think we can all agree that they do not represent reality in the same way that In the Shadow of the Moon does. Even though I know full well that an equally compelling documentary/propoganda film could hypothetically be made in favor of George W. Bush or the gun lobby, I find Moore's films to be funny, touching, and meaningful to me. I happen to agree with his point of view despite the fact that not everything in his films are necessarily balanced. I would never live my life or change my vote based on his films alone, but I wouldn't do that based on any other director's films either. The only real difference between Michael Moore and Leni Riefenstahl is that I support gun control and do not support Nazism. Riefenstahl and Moore share similar tactics (but different ideologies, of course) and they are both masters at their craft. I also prefer Moore because his films are funnier.
That said, I'd be happy to see Manufacturing Dissent if and when I get a hold of it. I have a library book due in a week so I'll check to see if my local library has it in circulation. |
Edited by - GHcool on 10/13/2007 06:34:10 |
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Manufacturing Dissent
Among the usual crap rants by retards of course. 