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BaftaBaby 
"Always entranced by cinema."
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 Posted - 02/12/2008 : 10:36:19
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PMFJI ... but ...
I wonder how many of you guys have been pregnant? Or debated with yourselves the pros and cons of abortion vs childbirth? Or been subject to/witness to the things others actually DO say rather than what you think they 'should' say?
One of the things that makes Cody's script so fresh is that she presents characters who don't conform to stereotype while simultaneously creating consistency within the landscape she's drawn. There's nothing alien about any of these characters. Also, I don't believe either the writer or director is trying to push a particular agenda. This is no a propaganda movie.
Distilling some of the comments in this thread, all one can really conclude is that if this had been your film you'd have structured and peopled it differently.
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Demisemicenturian 
"Four ever European"
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Posted - 02/12/2008 : 12:52:29
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Not me, B.B. I like it just the way it is.  |
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MisterBadIdea 
"PLZ GET MILK, KTHXBYE"
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Posted - 02/12/2008 : 14:57:52
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quote:
Originally posted by MM0rkeleb
Having a fiance who is Chinese-born and has been in the west for about 7 years, this didn't faze me. Just the other day, she said 'don't' instead of 'not,' while pronouncing 'fingernail' is no problem. That's English grammar for you.
Oh, no, I know. I got a whole boatload of English-mangling Asian relatives. What galls me about Su-Chin's inclusion is that it seems to be mocking her specifically for being Chinese and not being able to speak words good. The movie is trying to make her like a moron, this tiny girl out in her protest of one, and her foreign speech was part of her moron-ness. Gotta agree with Salopian, it strikes a very weird note that I don't think the filmmakers thought out very well.
quote:
The film is quite right on that point. The ultrasound technician is not a counsellor and does not even see the mothers with their babies. It is completely unprofessional and inappropriate of her to comment on anyone's maternal suitability. Furthermore, even if it were suitable for her to make such comments, she ought to be saying "Wow, you are much more together than most pregnant teenagers that I see."
The ultrasound technician was right. No one ever acknowledges that.
Whether or not it was appropriate for her to say it, she was still correct -- teenagers shouldn't be raising kids. And that's what bugs me so much about that scene. Our Juno doesn't have to feel the sting of a judgmental jerk making her feel bad about her stupid choices because mom's there to protect her. We don't even get to see Juno's reaction to being judged harshly by a stranger before mom starts laying in on the woman.
This has two effects -- because we don't see Juno being hurt by this woman's comments, the scene has no emotional impact, it's just a mom being a bitch to a stranger for a minor slight. And two, it shows how little this film is willing to explore Juno's mindspace. It doesn't examine how a teenager so supposedly together got herself pregnant, it won't judge her for getting herself into a potentially life-upheaving condition, and it's uninterested in how she deals with the pregnancy. Imagine if the whole love triangle subplot hadn't come along -- there would be no meat in the stew at all, it would just be a glorification of Juno for having impeccable fashion sense and great taste in movies and a knack for one-liners. I've said it before, I'll say it again -- make the film about Mark and Vanessa and it would be a far superior film. |
Edited by - MisterBadIdea on 05/06/2008 23:26:28 |
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turrell 
"Ohhhh Ohhhh Ohhhh Ohhhh "
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Posted - 02/12/2008 : 16:54:09
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If everyone in the movie acted like they do in real life it would not have been very interesting - the ultrasound technician is the vessel for society's opinion of Juno and could have been a police officer, or bank teller for what its worth. I think it was a foil created to posit the cynicism against her pregnancy and allow for her step mother to come to her aid.
I have two children and have been in on countless ultrasounds (especially since our first child was a "risky" pregnancy). Ultrasound technicians are human - some are very clinical and just do their jobs others react to things they see (bad poker faces). One even asked us if we wanted to know what the sex was ans when my wife said, "We don't but you can tell?" - she replied "oh yeah its very obvious" which kind of suggested it was a boy (it was). Th epoint is in real life people have bad days and that this ultrasound tech said somethng that was not expected is what made the scene interesting. Its not a documentary.
I remember after seeing "Boys Don't Cry" how many people championed how 'realistic' the small town hicks were. I know this was based on a true story, and the small mindedness of the locals probably was pretty realistic. That did not make me want to spend two hours of my time with them, however. I much prefer Whit Stillman films (Metropolitan, BArcelona, etc.) where the characters obviously speak unrealistically, but interestingly to be sure. |
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Demisemicenturian
"Four ever European"
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Posted - 02/17/2008 : 07:40:40
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quote:
Originally posted by MisterBadIdea
The ultrasound technician was right. No one ever acknowledges that.
Whether or not it was appropriate for her to say it, she was still correct -- teenagers shouldn't be raising kids. And that's what bugs me so much about that scene. Our Juno doesn't have to feel the sting of a judgmental jerk making her feel bad about her stupid choices because mom's there to protect her. We don't even get to see Juno's reaction to being judged harshly by a stranger before mom starts laying in on the woman.
This has two effects -- because we don't see Juno being hurt by this woman's comments, the scene has no emotional impact, it's just a mom being a bitch to a stranger for a minor slight.
It's not ideal for a sixteen- or seventeen-year-old to have a child, but it's not the end of the world if they have a supportive family or other means of building up the necessary skills. There's no need for any character to ponder this, though, as Juno is not considering keeping the child. I'm glad it's like that, as it would not be at all interesting to see such pondering. The whole point of the scene is that it's not Juno's mother - it's her stepmother. While she has many stepmother traits, this is the scene where she is shown to love Juno like a daughter, which is far more interesting than letting the technician express her faulty opinions further. It would be much more everyday and therefore quite pointless to see an older professional undermine an adolescent's sense of self-worth. |
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Demisemicenturian
"Four ever European"
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Posted - 02/17/2008 : 07:45:02
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| I agree with turrell - I have absolutely no interest in watching typical characters behave typically during a very common and not at all (nowadays) secretive experience. There are plenty of documentaries and soaps for that, as well as first-hand accounts. |
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Tori
"I don't get it...."
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Posted - 05/06/2008 : 15:57:20
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quote:
The film is quite right on that point. The ultrasound technician is not a counsellor and does not even see the mothers with their babies. It is completely unprofessional and inappropriate of her to comment on anyone's maternal suitability. Furthermore, even if it were suitable for her to make such comments, she ought to be saying "Wow, you are much more together than most pregnant teenagers that I see."
The ultrasound technician was right. No one ever acknowledges that.
Whether or not it was appropriate for her to say it, she was still correct -- teenagers shouldn't be raising kids. And that's what bugs me so much about that scene. Our Juno doesn't have to feel the sting of a judgmental jerk making her feel bad about her stupid choices because mom's there to protect her. We don't even get to see Juno's reaction to being judged harshly by a stranger before mom starts laying in on the woman.
[/quote]
I became a mother four days after turning 18. I'm a pretty good mom. I'm only 23 and people 20 years older than me come to me for advice all the time, even parenting advice (shock and awe, right?). And even if my Mom had jumped to my defense after a harsh comment, I still would have felt the sting. Just because Juno didn't get to respond didn't mean it didn't affect her. |
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BaftaBaby
"Always entranced by cinema."
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Posted - 05/06/2008 : 16:21:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Tori
quote:
The film is quite right on that point. The ultrasound technician is not a counsellor and does not even see the mothers with their babies. It is completely unprofessional and inappropriate of her to comment on anyone's maternal suitability. Furthermore, even if it were suitable for her to make such comments, she ought to be saying "Wow, you are much more together than most pregnant teenagers that I see."
The ultrasound technician was right. No one ever acknowledges that.
Whether or not it was appropriate for her to say it, she was still correct -- teenagers shouldn't be raising kids. And that's what bugs me so much about that scene. Our Juno doesn't have to feel the sting of a judgmental jerk making her feel bad about her stupid choices because mom's there to protect her. We don't even get to see Juno's reaction to being judged harshly by a stranger before mom starts laying in on the woman.
I became a mother four days after turning 18. I'm a pretty good mom. I'm only 23 and people 20 years older than me come to me for advice all the time, even parenting advice (shock and awe, right?). And even if my Mom had jumped to my defense after a harsh comment, I still would have felt the sting. Just because Juno didn't get to respond didn't mean it didn't affect her.
And judging from the pictures of your adorable ones, I'd guess you're more than just "pretty good" as a mom. Pretty, no doubt. But excellent is more likely!
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Edited by - BaftaBaby on 05/06/2008 19:44:09 |
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silly 
"That rabbit's DYNAMITE."
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Posted - 05/06/2008 : 19:30:03
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Most people I've read focus only on Juno and her condition, but I had a slightly different perspective. I bawled like a baby at the end of this movie, both times I watched it.
I could understand a lot of what Garner's character might have been feeling at that moment. Scared Shitless doesn't begin to cover it (and the nail biting waiting for the adoption doesn't help).
I would have been called Desperately Seeking Spawn, I suppose...
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Downtown 
"Welcome back, Billy Buck"
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Posted - 05/06/2008 : 20:20:52
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I found this movie excruciating.
Am I the only person that's grown tired of the Hollywood cliche of the short, extremely cynical brunette that's always being sarcastic and doesn't care if she fits in? Because that, and that alone, is what ruined it for me. |
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GHcool
"Forever a curious character."
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Posted - 05/06/2008 : 22:42:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Downtown
Am I the only person that's grown tired of the Hollywood cliche of the short, extremely cynical brunette that's always being sarcastic and doesn't care if she fits in? Because that, and that alone, is what ruined it for me.
Then you were irrationally prejudiced against the movie from the start. Forgive me for saying this, Downtown, but your post says more about you than it does about the movie.
I have a friend who says he refuses to see any dramas because he says that they are depressing and real life is depressing enough as it is, so why should he spend time and money to be depressed when he can spend that same time and money watching watching Iron Man. If one were to ask him what he thought of a universally praised dramatic movie, such as A Beautiful Mind or The Pianist, he would probably say that he hasn't seen it, but if he has seen it, he would probably say that the movie was terrible and he would not recommend it at all. |
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MisterBadIdea
"PLZ GET MILK, KTHXBYE"
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Posted - 05/06/2008 : 23:26:03
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quote:
Originally posted by silly
I could understand a lot of what Garner's character might have been feeling at that moment. Scared Shitless doesn't begin to cover it (and the nail biting waiting for the adoption doesn't help).
Completely agree, wish it had comprised more of the movie.
quote:
Originally posted by Tori
I became a mother four days after turning 18. I'm a pretty good mom. I'm only 23 and people 20 years older than me come to me for advice all the time, even parenting advice (shock and awe, right?).
Okay, fair enough. I will grant that teenage pregnancy does not automatically make one a failure as a mother. Heck, I know some people were the result of teenage pregnancy who had pretty good parents. Fine.
But in any case, it's pretty damn far from ideal for a teenager to be a mom -- they're not prepared for motherhood. (It'd be pretty freaking weird if they were prepared for motherhood.) And while this is not always the case, I feel like it's safe to say that mostly teenagers don't make great mothers. And that's what I feel like is missing from this movie -- the acknowledgement of some kind of fallibility in its main character, that Juno in fact has made a big life mistake by getting pregnant. Not a life-ruining or uncorrectable one, but a mistake nonetheless.
quote:
And even if my Mom had jumped to my defense after a harsh comment, I still would have felt the sting. Just because Juno didn't get to respond didn't mean it didn't affect her.
I saw no evidence that it did. Sure, you would have felt it; you're a human being. But I just don't feel that Juno, a fairly one-dimensional Mary Sue character, would do the same.
By the way, I ran across a hilarious "abridged version" of the Juno script. Wonderful stuff:
JENNIFER GARNER
Yay, now I get to raise an adopted kid in a broken home so that I can be overly protective and insane.
ELLEN PAGE
And I passed all of my classes and everything! Pregnancy is as unobtrusive as it is without consequence! |
Edited by - MisterBadIdea on 05/06/2008 23:31:25 |
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Demisemicenturian
"Four ever European"
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Posted - 05/06/2008 : 23:59:14
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quote:
Originally posted by MisterBadIdea
I feel like it's safe to say that mostly teenagers don't make great mothers. And that's what I feel like is missing from this movie -- the acknowledgement of some kind of fallibility in its main character, that Juno in fact has made a big life mistake by getting pregnant.
Yeah, but Juno at no point considers becoming a mother, so it doesn't matter how bad she would be. The pregnancy is shown as intruding into her life, i.e. by getting her into most of the scenes in the film rather than hanging around on corners or whatever da kidz do. It doesn't need to be spelt out by Juno saying at the clinic "It is time-consuming and unpleasant to be harangued by this woman at the clinic." Further, the stigma of unwanted teenage pregnancy does not need to be laboured over in the film. That is very well known and not in need of any exposition. |
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MisterBadIdea
"PLZ GET MILK, KTHXBYE"
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Posted - 05/07/2008 : 02:07:23
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Whenever I see a dead horse, it's a habit of mine to go whack it with a stick.
Regardless of what she plans to do with her unborn baby, she still screwed up by getting pregnant. The film softpedals this fact so hard that it barely registers. I don't need it to be a major thing in the movie, but just a little would help -- just a snide remark unanswered, or a hurt/offended look on her face before mom leaps to the rescue. Some sign that she's affected by this (and not just by having her in a pregnancy-related plotline, that hardly counts).
I'd like this more if they made it clearer that her hipper-than-thou persona is a defense against a world she doesn't much like or fit in to, a la Ghost World. Switching to praise for a moment, I love that when she finally declares her love to Bleeker, she does so directly and without the obnoxious indie slang -- it indicates that she's let her defense down. Similarly, most haters of the film especially hated the hamburger phone, but I loved it, because the hamburger phone is a carefully chosen piece of her quirky hipster image, but it's also a shoddy piece of crap which doesn't work right. I like to think of it as a symbol of how her above-it-all aura is failing her. Still, that isn't really enough for me, the film glorifies her too much. |
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TitanPa
"Here four more"
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Posted - 05/07/2008 : 03:50:00
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You can argue about the plot or the preganancy all you want. What I dont get is that you can tell this was written by someone much older than Juno's character. Juno is way too mature, talks like an adult, and knows too much for how old she really is.
Most kids arnt that mature and wouldnt be this calm carrying around a baby. But thats not what irks me.
WHen Juno's water breaks she yells "Thunder Cats are Gooooo!!"
Now anyone younger than, Id say 25, would they understand where this line came from???? I havent seen it on TV in ages. OTher things she talks about also wouldnt be on the minds of Kids these days. |
Edited by - TitanPa on 05/07/2008 04:29:47 |
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Juno
