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GHcool 
"Forever a curious character."
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 Posted - 05/07/2008 : 05:49:06
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quote:
Originally posted by TitanPa
You can argue about the plot or the preganancy all you want. What I dont get is that you can tell this was written by someone much older than Juno's character. Juno is way too mature, talks like an adult, and knows too much for how old she really is.
Most kids arnt that mature and wouldnt be this calm carrying around a baby. But thats not what irks me.
WHen Juno's water breaks she yells "Thunder Cats are Gooooo!!"
Now anyone younger than, Id say 25, would they understand where this line came from???? I havent seen it on TV in ages. OTher things she talks about also wouldnt be on the minds of Kids these days.
This isn't the first time I heard this criticism. Sometimes the criticism takes the form of that Juno isn't a realistic reflection of teen pregnancy. Other times, its that Juno's knowledge of pop culture is too extensive for a girl born in the early 1990s or late 1980s. Other times, its that Juno and other characters are too consistently witty to be considered or anything but a writer's creation.
These aren't really criticisms of the movie though. They are descriptions of it. Nobody, not even Diablo Cody, would argue that Juno is a realistic film or that it even pretends to be. The dialogue and characterizations are purposefully stylized for comic and dramatic effect. Juno and the world she inhabits are real only in the same way that Forrest Gump and his world is real; the specifics are larger than life and highly improbable, but the feelings the characters have and, hopefully, elicit in the audience are real. |
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Wheelz 
"FWFR%u2019ing like it%u2019s 1999"
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Posted - 05/07/2008 : 13:14:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Joe Blevins
I also had to cringe a little during the scene with the ultrasound technician. It took me a few seconds to realize that we're supposed to be CHEERING for Juno's stepmom here. "How dare that naughty ultrasound lady imply that an unwed teenage mother isn't the ideal person to raise a child? Boo! Give her hell, Juno's stepmom!" Isn't it possible -- just POSSIBLE, mind you -- that this woman who comes into contact with pregnant women all the time (including pregnant teenage girls like Juno) might have something worthwhile to say about this subject? Isn't it possible she might have some unique insight into the topic? Apparently not, the movie says. She's just there to be another cardboard villian like Bleeker's mom and the abortion clinic receptionist.
What struck me about that scene was that the technician didn't say something like "I don't think teenagers should be parents" or "In my experience, babies are better off being raised by grown-up married people" or any other point that might be fair to debate.
No, she declared that if Juno were to keep her baby, it would be raised in a "poisonous environment." That, to me, made it not some generic Greek-chorus social commentary illustrating the views many people have about unwed teen moms (there were other scenes that touched on that), but a direct personal insult toward Juno -- and her entire family for that matter -- and a pretty harsh insult at that.
So in that context, Brenda's reaction was entirely appropriate, and the tech's comment was entirely inappropriate (a human being having a bad day or not).
My take was that the scene was more about cementing the Juno/Brenda relationship that anything else; and while I do concede it was somewhat clumsily structured, it was surely not as horrible as some have made it out to be, nor was it an attept to advance a particular agenda. It was a character-based moment. |
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MisterBadIdea 
"PLZ GET MILK, KTHXBYE"
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Posted - 05/07/2008 : 14:04:54
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I'm under 25 and I'm well aware of the Thunderbirds. I don't think I was at 17, but I don't think it's entirely implausible that Juno McGuff would know about them. (Also, they had a big-budget, though unseen by most, movie version come out fairly recently.) I do object to the awkward, ham-handed way the reference is jammed in there, but that's mitigated somewhat by the fact that Juno confuses the Thunderbirds and the ThunderCats. She also confuses Morgan Freeman and Denzel Washington earlier in the movie. I don't know if these mistakes were deliberate, but if they were, it was a good move on Cody's part -- it takes some of the edge off of Juno's affected hipster air.
This isn't to say that Cody isn't also trying to make herself look cool by referencing the Thunderbirds, regardless. |
Edited by - MisterBadIdea on 05/07/2008 14:09:00 |
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Downtown 
"Welcome back, Billy Buck"
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Posted - 05/07/2008 : 17:46:54
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quote:
Originally posted by GHcool
quote:
Originally posted by Downtown
Am I the only person that's grown tired of the Hollywood cliche of the short, extremely cynical brunette that's always being sarcastic and doesn't care if she fits in? Because that, and that alone, is what ruined it for me.
Then you were irrationally prejudiced against the movie from the start. Forgive me for saying this, Downtown, but your post says more about you than it does about the movie.
I have a friend who says he refuses to see any dramas because he says that they are depressing and real life is depressing enough as it is, so why should he spend time and money to be depressed when he can spend that same time and money watching watching Iron Man. If one were to ask him what he thought of a universally praised dramatic movie, such as A Beautiful Mind or The Pianist, he would probably say that he hasn't seen it, but if he has seen it, he would probably say that the movie was terrible and he would not recommend it at all.
There's no basis for a comparison between what I said and someone dismissing an entire genre of films they haven't seen. I said I hated this movie because the main character was a Hollywood cliche with no originality whatsoever, which made it impossible for me to enjoy a film that may have had a good premise, plot, and otherwise good writing. I'm not the first person to say there was a particular aspect of a particular film that ruined it for them, the only problem is I'm saying it about a movie that's going through "English Patient Syndrome." I never expected my comment to convince anyone else that the Emperor has no clothes, but it was still perfectly legitimate. |
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Downtown
"Welcome back, Billy Buck"
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Posted - 05/07/2008 : 17:48:54
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quote:
Originally posted by TitanPa
You can argue about the plot or the preganancy all you want. What I dont get is that you can tell this was written by someone much older than Juno's character. Juno is way too mature, talks like an adult, and knows too much for how old she really is.
Most kids arnt that mature and wouldnt be this calm carrying around a baby. But thats not what irks me.
WHen Juno's water breaks she yells "Thunder Cats are Gooooo!!"
Now anyone younger than, Id say 25, would they understand where this line came from???? I havent seen it on TV in ages. OTher things she talks about also wouldnt be on the minds of Kids these days.
Thundercats has been on Cartoon Network and there's talk of a live action movie. |
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GHcool
"Forever a curious character."
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Posted - 05/07/2008 : 20:15:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Downtown
quote:
Originally posted by GHcool
quote:
Originally posted by Downtown
Am I the only person that's grown tired of the Hollywood cliche of the short, extremely cynical brunette that's always being sarcastic and doesn't care if she fits in? Because that, and that alone, is what ruined it for me.
Then you were irrationally prejudiced against the movie from the start. Forgive me for saying this, Downtown, but your post says more about you than it does about the movie.
I have a friend who says he refuses to see any dramas because he says that they are depressing and real life is depressing enough as it is, so why should he spend time and money to be depressed when he can spend that same time and money watching watching Iron Man. If one were to ask him what he thought of a universally praised dramatic movie, such as A Beautiful Mind or The Pianist, he would probably say that he hasn't seen it, but if he has seen it, he would probably say that the movie was terrible and he would not recommend it at all.
There's no basis for a comparison between what I said and someone dismissing an entire genre of films they haven't seen. I said I hated this movie because the main character was a Hollywood cliche with no originality whatsoever, which made it impossible for me to enjoy a film that may have had a good premise, plot, and otherwise good writing. I'm not the first person to say there was a particular aspect of a particular film that ruined it for them, the only problem is I'm saying it about a movie that's going through "English Patient Syndrome." I never expected my comment to convince anyone else that the Emperor has no clothes, but it was still perfectly legitimate.
I agree that my friend who doesn't like dramas is a much more extreme case than your dislike of the Juno character type. I disagree that your comment is a legitimate criticism of the film. To say that one doesn't like Juno because its about a cynical brunette is like saying one doesn't like Goodfellas because its about Italian American gangsters. |
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Demisemicenturian 
"Four ever European"
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Posted - 05/07/2008 : 23:58:41
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quote:
Originally posted by GHcool
like saying one doesn't like Goodfellas because its about Italian American gangsters.
But that would be perfectly valid. One could quite reasonably (and probably should) feel that one has seen enough of Italian American gangsters for a lifetime. One could be tired of cynical brunettes just the same. |
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turrell
"Ohhhh Ohhhh Ohhhh Ohhhh "
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Posted - 05/08/2008 : 04:49:36
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I loved Pulp Fiction and clearly no one talks like that in real life especially in the situations they were in - yet I do not fault that one bit. This is art - it is not a documentary about teens or teen pregnancy.
We don't blame Shakespeare for writing in ways that people in the 17th century would never speak - certainly not off the top of their heads.
I am not saying that Cody is writing on par with Shakespeare or even Tarantino for that matter, but I just enjoyed hearing the poetry of words in this film despite its lack of plausibility - I would rather hear someone who is unrealistically clever than a real teenager - have you heard any of them lately (wow I sound old - I relaize that as well!) |
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MisterBadIdea
"PLZ GET MILK, KTHXBYE"
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Posted - 05/08/2008 : 05:58:49
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quote:
I am not saying that Cody is writing on par with Shakespeare or even Tarantino for that matter, but I just enjoyed hearing the poetry of words in this film despite its lack of plausibility
Well, that's the crux of it, I suppose. This is going to come down to a matter of personal taste, but indeed, Cody's writing is not on par with Tarantino's and I think that's what I'll go with as my main point. It's not that I dislike the dialogue because it's unrealistic, although it certainly is; I dislike it because it's BAD. I found it completely obnoxious, and certainly not in the least poetic, to hear quips like "honest to blog" or "that's one doodle that can't be undid, homeskillet" or "Next time I see that Bleeker kid I'm going to punch him in the weiner"; I mean, they're just NOT FUNNY or clever or amusing or anything. They're annoying. And while we're on the subject, Tarantino dialogue makes sense in a Tarantino world, which is populated by movie icons and not human beings. The Juno universe is populated by human characters who don't talk like human characters.
God, I've talked more about this film than movies I've seen a billion times. |
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GHcool
"Forever a curious character."
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Posted - 05/08/2008 : 06:37:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Salopian
quote:
Originally posted by GHcool
like saying one doesn't like Goodfellas because its about Italian American gangsters.
But that would be perfectly valid. One could quite reasonably (and probably should) feel that one has seen enough of Italian American gangsters for a lifetime. One could be tired of cynical brunettes just the same.
Again, that says something about the individual audience member. It says nothing about the movie.
Consider this statement: "I don't like touring in France because I've toured enough European countries for a lifetime."
Does it say anything of value about France? Is the fact that France is a European country grounds for criticism? I assert that the above statement says nothing about France and everything about the speaker. |
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Demisemicenturian
"Four ever European"
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Posted - 05/08/2008 : 08:04:58
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quote:
Originally posted by MisterBadIdea
"honest to blog"
That's meant to sound like a lame teen thing.
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"that's one doodle that can't be undid, homeskillet"
That's meant to sound like a lame parent thing.
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"Next time I see that Bleeker kid I'm going to punch him in the weiner"
I don't know why but reading that made me laugh out loud, so that one's fine too. |
Edited by - Demisemicenturian on 05/08/2008 08:05:17 |
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Demisemicenturian
"Four ever European"
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Posted - 05/08/2008 : 08:12:50
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quote:
Originally posted by GHcool
Again, that says something about the individual audience member. It says nothing about the movie.
Consider this statement: "I don't like touring in France because I've toured enough European countries for a lifetime."
Does it say anything of value about France? Is the fact that France is a European country grounds for criticism? I assert that the above statement says nothing about France and everything about the speaker.
The film and the audience's response to it are two sides of the same coin. If one has seen all the tiresome mafia films and has had enough of the ground shared by all of them, then one can reasonably be irritated by sitting through the same ground again, whatever aspects of the film are not shared with the others. Similarly, one can decide that the film is highly likely to have the characteristics shared by all the others and decide not to sit through it. Same with cynical brunettes. Same with European countries. If one has visited numerous European countries and disliked them all in the same way, one can expect to dislike France in that way. And yes, of course that's something to do with France. It doesn't mean France has to change, but it's meaningless to the point of imcomprehsibility to say that a feature of France that it shares with other countries says nothing about it. |
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silly
"That rabbit's DYNAMITE."
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Posted - 05/08/2008 : 12:06:50
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It's interesting the reaction this seems to provoke (not just here, I've seen it other places)
Lots of movies, even supposedly realistic ones, have characters that seem to know too much, or have a clever line waiting at the tip of their tongue. I don't see what the big deal is. The "honest to blog" sounded irritating to me, too, but I don't have teens, so I don't know if they really talk like that. Wouldn't really surprise me, what with lolcats and all that.
Is it the teen pregnancy thing? Big movie when I was in high school was Fast Times at Ridgemont High, which not only featured actress getting pregnant, but getting an abortion, too, and not telling the parents. She didn't have to spend an entire school year being talked about and pointed at while being physically uncomfortable, to say the least.
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MisterBadIdea
"PLZ GET MILK, KTHXBYE"
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Posted - 05/09/2008 : 16:00:47
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quote:
Big movie when I was in high school was Fast Times at Ridgemont High, which not only featured actress getting pregnant, but getting an abortion, too, and not telling the parents. She didn't have to spend an entire school year being talked about and pointed at while being physically uncomfortable, to say the least.
And yet Jennifer Jason Leigh communicated far more pain and internal turmoil than Ellen Page was ever asked to. And it's not like an abortion is an easy, painless process to go through either. |
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BaftaBaby 
"Always entranced by cinema."
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Posted - 05/09/2008 : 16:16:36
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quote:
Originally posted by MisterBadIdea
And it's not like an abortion is an easy, painless process to go through either.
That depends how it's done ... & you've had/seen how many?
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Juno
